Big Sid, rather than go into huge amounts of stuff, I­ have pasted a couple of points, this is not the whole­ story, but if you want to know more it is out there for­ you to find.

"As Home Secretary at the time the­ Mental Deficiency Act of 1913 finally became law, it is­ recorded in Hansard that Winston Churchill­ said:
"The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth­ of the feebleminded classes, coupled with a steady­ restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and­ superior stocks, constitutes a race danger. I feel that­ the source from which the stream of madness is fed­ should be cut off and sealed up before another year has­ passed." "

"Erbkrank (Heredity, 1936).­ This film, intended to criminalise, degrade and­ dehumanise the mentally and physically impaired, was­ silent and shot in black and white. The victims were­ manipulated to make them appear horrific, with­ superimposed captions of the cost of keeping them­ alive. Using direct interviews with disabled people,­ cleverly lit and staged, filmed from below and cut to­ make them appear very different from ordinary workers,­ it made the audience sympathise with compulsory­ sterilisation and, later, mercy killing. By­ Hitler's order, it was shown in all German­ cinemas"

Big Sid, the point of my not proviing the evidence­ rather just saying I can is that I have tried to keep­ to the debate in hand whilst dealing with a number of­ points that people are getting exercised about. That­ one was because a person posting was being castigated­ for suggesting that WC was not a particularly nice­ person and people are selective in their memory or­ understanding of history. Fact is he was not a nice­ person, but he was a charasmatic leader and what the­ country needed at that time, it does not mean he was a­ good person.

However the debate is not about that but­ about the use of Hitler as a good example of getting­ things done. the points made are not anti semetic or­ racist although there will be always those that see­ that given the context. The points are abhorent because­ the way in which Hitler got things done was to try and­ rid society of what he considered polutants to the race­ and those he consdiered to be economincally a drain on­ society. My point is that many societies in relation to­ Disabled People had teh same debates and took actions,­ for example Sweden forcibly sterilising some people­ until the 1980's. Here in Britain we also had those­ debates. We took actions but did not kill Disabled­ People or those considered deviant but we locked them­ up for decades.

Rather than me prove what the debates­ were at the time and who had them, can you prove that­ they did not happen? If you look into it I am sure that­ you will find some interesting facts. Leeds CIL did an­ interesting study some years back on this theme, wwith­ results that perhaps are little known or have been­ diluted and hidden due to our wish to maintain a­ perspective of the past.

Larson hindsight is a wonderful thing and poor old­ Neville Chamberlain wanted to preserve peace at almost­ any cost, unfortunately he didn't realise that­ Hitler wanted his war and wanted it soon. As we say -­ he wasn't getting any younger and considered that­ if he waited 5 years he would be too old to run a war. ­ But Chamberlain got a terrible press that he­ didn't deserve. You also seem to indicate that­ Chamberlain was for "giving in", well he may­ have been for giving in to Nazi demands (Czechoslovakia­ at Munich) but I don't think he was ever for­ surrendering once the war had started. Which is what­ you seem to suggest.

There were a number of members of­ the English upper class who wanted to court the Nazis­ and many Nazis held the English upper classes in high­ respect. After all the British Empire had ruled great­ chunks of the world for a long time. You must read the­ book "The Remains of the Day" by Kazuo­ Ishiguro, which although it is a fiction has a­ historical basis - my favourite author.

btw Larson who­ was behind the determination to fight on?

Helen I­ asked you to provide evidence to prove that Churchill­ considered mass genocide and you answer: "Big Sid,­ yes I can" and then you don't provide any­ evidence. Is there any?

If all of the: - goverment officials, sponsors, track­ organizers etc refused to deal with the­ "Gnome".
The CVC would have to remove him­ from his position!
They cant sack the little B@st@rd.­ But not having him in your face constantly would be­ great!!

Haha that's funny. Poor Bernie, I don't think­ he meant it as a racist statement...... but he's a­ closet racist as is Max IMO.

This fella called Bernie has said and continues to say­ things that are unacceptable in modern society at­ large. May be he thought German politicians would be­ impressed at his remarks (knowing German Grand Prix is­ aroung the corner), but alas he shot his own foot. The­ Germans are even embrassed at his remarks because­ Hitler is one of embrassing truths in world­ history.

For God's sake Germans themselves­ wouldn't say such things to the press. This is­ Bernie's arrogance at its worst. Typical of­ deranged psychopath, no remorse at all even when­ confronted in the straightest way possible. He might­ own F1 but definetely not worth its association.

Next­ time, don't get surprised when something big gets­ cancelled, this is only the beginning.

Of course a dictatorship can "get things­ done". DUH!!! There's no decension and­ everyone's forced to move in the same direction,­ right or wrong. Hell, I could achieve world peace if­ everyone was willing to do as I say.... else you die.­ HellOOOOooo!!!

Let FOTA take real F1 racing to a whole­ new commission. Lose these F1 dictators.. One down, one­ to go.

Looks like I kicked over the proverbial wasps nest! At­ least, in my own defense, I prefaced what I said with­ the caveat that what I said would piss some people off.­ Well, I did, and it did!

Most younger Brits have no­ idea how close the government was, during the time­ Chamberlain was PM, to giving in and negotiating a­ peace agreement with Hitler. Had that happened, the­ course of the world would have been altered­ drastically. Only the insistence that Britain fight­ on, kept Britain in the war and permitted the current­ world order to survive.

Big Sid, yes I can,

The science of Eugenics was mainly­ started in Britain, and indeed the word eugenics was­ coined by a Brit. You are right many people at that­ time believed very strongly in that so called science­ and WC was one of them. The sterilisation and genocide­ of people considered deviant and poluting the race had­ consdierable influence in GB and did lead to some­ unpleasent laws and events. AS I say here it was­ decided to incarcerate people rather than kill them, in­ Sweden it was sterilisation, and teh Aussies went for­ that to as did the Americans.

larsonrc41, had a point­ in an much as there is a lot about WC that is not­ palitable, and his attitude to women was appalling, we­ tend to gloss over that. However larsonrc41, did not­ articulate his point well.

All that aside it is­ important that we do not lose sight of the real debate,­ can and should this man Ecclescake represnt F1 and­ therefore you and me?

John Lennon got himself into hot water in the USA in­­ the 1960s for a quite similar, jocular comment. I­ fully­ understand why many many people are very­ sensitive to­ any comment made whatsoever, that is why­ individuals­ who are reported widely in the­ international media have­ to be very careful of­ anything they say, and that they­ are reported­ correctly. Reading this makes me very sad.

HELEN can you provide evidence that Churchill­ considered mass genocide? As for the belief in­ eugenics, yes many people at that time believed in­ this, mainly on the top of some very dodgy­ science.

Larson you said "At the risk of­ alienating all of my­ Brit friends out there, I am­ going to make a somewhat­ unfortunate characterization­ myself, and that is that­ too many, not all, mind you,­ but too many older­ Englishmen exhibit an unfortunate­ hubris about­ themselves that leads them to make­ completely­ wrong-headed statements of opinion. Having­ lived in­ Malaysia and Singapore in the 1950's and­ having­ recently just finished two biographies of­ Winston­ Churchill, I feel I have some basis for the­ above­ statement."

No you don't have basis­ for the above statement and I feel insulted by your­ opinionated post. Not only that you do not actually­ say anything, ie what wrong-headed statement are you­ referring to?

Bernie is too old, the moral of the story is to­ 'look before you leap', Bernie deserves the­ condemnation he received.

All dictators get things done...they just happen to be­ the most evil and despicable things known to man

larsonrc41, you make a valid point, particuarly if you­ include Churchill in that scenario, as he actually­ agreed with many of the eugenisit views held by Hitler,­ and indeed did contemplate a similar senatio as far as­ Dsiabled People are concerned, hwoever he concluded­ that the British public would not go for mass genocide­ so he ordered that officials 'should go out into­ the highways and byways' and remove such people as­ were not fit to live in society and incacerate them. A­ very dismal period in British history that many mnay­ choose to forget or simply not know about and it was­ not until the 70's and 80's that som,e people­ were actually released, old people who had been­ interned for no offence when they were young

I am sorry the FOTA teams gave in to Bernie and Max. I­ think they wimped out. They had an opportunity to push­ Bernie and Max out because ultimately the FOTA teams­ had the leverage. They didn't have to form a new­ series. They could have said they would sit things out­ next year unless Bernie and Max stepped down. Instead,­ they have signed on to whatever tomfoolery the Nazi duo­ decide to throw their way. It is obvious to everyone,­ the teams, the fans, the manufacturers, the sponsors,­ and the track owners that Ecclestone and Mosley are bad­ for the sport. The FOTA teams had and opportunity to­ break the stranglehold those two have over the sport­ and they missed that opportunity. Now Max is­ threatening to go for another four years. That's­ just wonderful.

Wow...
It would seem that Max has fantasys where­ he's Himmler.
And Bernie would love to rule like­ his purified vision of Hitler.
Pretty scary.

Spot on Helen, well said. C'mon guys, let's­ stick to the point here and not get diverted onto­ pointless side issues. And just for the record, the­ economic recovery in Germany was getting underway at­ the time of the Nazi rise to power, and so Hitler's­ policies were not the major factor behind it. Indeed,­ the arms manufacturing race that the Nazis began was to­ place a severe strain on the integrity of their­ economy. Anyway, back to the point myself. Bernie is a­ quasi-fascist and must go. Where has that breakaway­ series gone? Must be round here somewhere...

krustabas, I think you would find that most right­ thinking people posting here would condeme all­ dictators and those that devalue human life and commit­ crimes against humanity. North Korea, Iran, Zimbabwe­ etc but I think you will also find that the term­ Communist does not apply to them all.

I was not aware­ that the communists were particuarly friendly with the­ Nazi's but happy for you to tell me what and who­ you are referring to.

However in this context we can­ and must condeme the work and ideology of Hitler­ because that is the point of this article, not­ communism, dictatorship and inhumanity in general.