Re: Post 52: The fact is that McLaren DID agree to pay the $100 Million fine, and, accept the loss of the financialy valuable constructors points which tends to point to the fact that McLaren were guilty as charged.

The eleventh commandmant suggests that "Thou shalt not get caught".

McLaren were caught, and having been caught, they paid the penalty.

That's fact.

Not moral turpitude, just fact...

All of them: Alonso, Massa, Hamilton, have giant ego's. Lewis just gets more opportunities to bring it to light here, and with a few bonehead comments he's earned a reputation that tints some of his lesser, more justifiable quotes. Alonso is more backhanded with his comments and Massa is just coming to light out of Kimi's shadow. His comments in Valencia were pompous to say the least.

ALONSO IS DOUBLE WORLD CHAMPION

ANYONE ELSE AROUND WHO CAN SAY THAT TODAY

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Re: Post 53: And yet, not only BMW, but a host of other teams wanted, and still would like to have, Fernando Alonso driving for them...Go figure..

Regarding Alonso, really he should have gone to BMW. A lot of us speculated that he would play it safe and stay underachieving at Renault. After failing to accept the challenge of Kubica, Alonso has confirmed he prefers the status of the 'big fish in a small pond' Uninspiring is my verdict!

I think we should all stop this magazine type gossip nonsense. The point is that intellectual property has always travelled from team to team, everyone knows this, it is well documented, usually it travels in the heads of the engineers as they are head hunted from team to team. Ferrari are no angels and neither are McLaren nor Renault (as proven just after the McLaren-Ferrari incident).

I think the fact that a set of actual documents were involved this time mainly due to a Ferrari employee and a McLaren employee wanting to advetise their wares inorder to gain new employment to me indicates two things, a Ferrari employee has let his team down and a McLaren employee has let his team down, simple as that. The next bit obviously involves Max Mosley taking as usual full advantage of the situation to penalise McLaren in a totally draconian way purely inorder to settle some grudge with Ron Dennis. Look into the relative history of Mosley's March team and Dennis's McLaren team especially in light of the Max Mosely revelations. Is this really the kind of moral champion you are happy to have witch hunt McLaren? If so, then you stand and fall with Max.

Anybody who tries really to claim or extract any kind of moral ground or moral victory out of this mess is just pissing in the wind and frankly clutching at straws. If all teams were to be judged according to this criteria in retrospect they would all be sunk and classed as cheats, it's a nonsense. Did designer Rory Byrne move from Benetton to Ferrari without carrying knowledge? Ferrari wouldn't have hired him if that were true. Did Adrian Newey move from McLaren to Redbull without his 'knowledge' I hope not for Redbull and Vettel's sake. It follows then that whoever chooses to follow Max Mosley's witch hunt of McLaren must themselves be a hypocrite.

I've said it before concentrate on your own teams and drivers problems rather than @#$% at the opposition.

I'll just be happy when we lift the needle on the whole spygate and Ferrari/FIA record. It's worn out already. Can we pleeeeeeeeeeze move on?

ADMIRABLE ALONSO IS A DOUBLE WORLD CHAMP

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To: Forza Ferrari: I usually find myself in agreement with many of your posts but I disagree on the one regarding Massa. Maybe it's just me but it seems to me that Massa is just as he always was. I cannot see any resemblance between the attitudes of Massa and Hamilton....

One of them thinks that he is God, the other one thanks God every time he races.

Guess which is which...

Forza...Well said...Im a big lewis fan but there have been a couple of incidents this year when I thought he was pushing it a bit too far... MS used to do the same but I admire both of them for their ability... Maybe you have to have that ruthless streak to be (MS) or aspire to be (LH) the best.

And I thought this wan an article about Alonso staying at Renault....silly me!

I have seen Massa's dad a couple of times, but I'm not sure whether he was in the pits. I don't mind seeing Lewis' dad in the pits. There's nothing wrong with that. And there's also nothing wrong with Lewis being Ron Denis' protege. Actually, that story is quite unique and interesting. The only thing that bothers me about Lewis is the fact that he seems to be getting a big head, not to mention his apparent lack of respect for other drivers. I actually liked him last year and even found myself rooting for him, but this year his attitude seems to be different. Massa is also starting to do that. A shame, really!

THIEVES... What is the definition of theft?

Massa..

like that the mclaren team are sooooo innocent :'( and RD and his happy famely knows nothing about the data :'( :'( ;'( (U)(U)(U)(U)...thieves... you are a shame to F1 and the FIA mus have banned you for at least 2 years from the championchip and mercedes benz shoul not supply you with their engines...mcthieves...

On another topic, can anyone, regardless of bias, remember any other setup where an F1 driver had his daddy in the pit lane garage?

I won't mention names of course but, other than the one that I did not name, can any of you remember a single occasion when an F1 driver had his daddy in the pits even once?

Let alone every single race...

Well said Forza Ferrari, some of the McLaren fans out there seem to forget that McLaren was fined $100 Million AND, had all their constructors points deducted, AND, perhaps most importantly, McLaren AGREED to pay the fine and to lose their constructors points.

The notion that the McLaren senior folks were not aware of the stolen data is ludicrous beyond belief.

Had they been totally unaware that their team had, AND MADE USE OF stolen competitor data, one would assume that they would have crucified the "Juniors" responsible and fought the fine with great vigour.

The fact that they did not do that, and that they humbly agreed to the fine speaks volumes about the ethical standards, or the lack thereof at McLaren...

"So if a drug dealer offers you drugs and you accept them, then you are innocent?"
No ..you are not innocent but your family is not punished for you're mistake are they???

I rest my case!

People keep forgetting that it was a Ferrari 'MAN' who stole the information..A McLaren 'man' had the information after it was given to him... Fernando tried to blackmail RD ...