Sorry to have been so @#$% tt, hes right about Ferrari having the best driver combo.Vettel in Hamiltons place could have won 1 or 2 titles in a Mclaren even with the powers that be trying to squash Mclaren. Hamilton would have run away with the title in a Ferrari

Sorry blokes but this tt is a w**ker! In regards to the "illegality" of McLaren,Do we really know if the Ferrari employee who throws some Ferrari info off on a mcLaren employee was just setting McLaren up?.Do it not seem strange that"he" wasnt prosecuted? He is no longer working for Ferrari and probally financially set for life!!

I agree with #75, Vettel belongs in a Ferrari. How about this, Vettel and Bourdais in a Ferrari.

might I add, as the definitions you so kindly posted show - talent is the mere capacity of achievement and unrealized achievement in no way reflects negatively on talent. I was also not questioning young Lewis' talent, rather your method of determining who out there was more talented than Vettel, since you did not consider any variables other than prior achievements....

mp4- really? In 07 the McLaren certainly was the best car, albeit illegal. While your argument might have some warrant for 08 - I attribute the constructors' championship not to Ferrari being superior, but to Ferrari having the more potent driver combination - and befor you get all stressed out again - I do not mean to imply that Massa or Kimi are better than your hero, just that Massa and Kimi are a better combination than young Lewis and Kovi...

tt, Thongs man always Thongs.

somebody sure got their panties in a wad.... or do you prefer knickers?

aaronvincent, If,If,If my friend we can all go down the If road.
The Constructors Championship was designed to show a teams reliability over a season, now correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Mclaren have won it for the last 10yrs.

And to the poster below yes the mclaren was the best car last season. The speed was equal with the ferrari and it was far more reliable. If Massa had not had his engine failures he would be world champ

Vettal is the future of f1 i will bet anyone he ends up in the Ferrari when his red bull deal is up.

Also tt if you care to "look up" the '07&'08 Constructors tables you will also see that the World Champion has not been in the best car for his first two seasons.

tt, I've seen a few of your post's & realise your no fan of the World Champion. Now like many on here I really don't care who you like or dislike, each to there own, but when you start questioning the guys obvious ( Talent, Ability, Achievement ) which ever word floats yer boat, then you are seriously lacking in your knowledge of F1 or you are very delusional.

Mark W, I totally agree with your post @ 68.

tt, Take all the cars out of the equation & you get the Olympics.
Talent:A capacity for achievement or success.
Achievement:Something accomplished, esp. by superior ability.
Ability:Abilities, talents; special skills or aptitudes.
Why you couldn't look this up for yourself I don't know but here it is anyway & I've thrown in a little bit of ability as`well for ya.

tt - I agree with your first point, I'm sure there were many other drivers who given similar machinery would have given Lewis a run for his money. But that doesn't mean Lewis isn't an extremley talented driver. And yes Lewis has been error prone, but I think the pressures on him (or being in the front 2 rows) are far greater than being in the midfield. Everyone is watching the front, not so much the rear. Let us also not forget the errors Kimi and Massa also made this season. Alonso has also had his fair share. If Lewis is still making these mistakes in the next few years, then yes, he has a major flaw.

I used to race karts at club level and from experience I know that there was much more pressure being at the front. If I was near the midfield to back, the pressures were not as high for sure.

all this what if.the point is he was spotted years ago by mclaren.they invested in him like any large company invests in potential.he drives a mclaren if what he says he will always drive a mclaran.so to say what would he be like in another car is immaterial and a waste of time and breath.

take the car out of the equation and young lewis ain't lookin' all THAT hot.....

WTF.if your going to make a comment at least make a sensible one.if you take the car away what is he supposed to do run around the circuit.num nuts!

what i am saying is that while Lewis' first two seasons certainly do look impressive, one should not forget that he had a car to do it with and there are a number of drivers throughout the years that would have given him a run for his money, had they had the luxury to start their careers in a ride as competitive as Lewis'.

He has further shown himself to be error prone when under pressure and you are a lot more under pressure in mid-field than you are in the first two rows on the grid, so had Lewis' had anything but a McLaren or Ferrari, he might just be one of the gang - a talented young driver... no better, no worse than 4 or 5 other guys out there....

unlike achievement [to a certain degree], talent does not lend itself to quantifiable measures and will have to be determined by more partial methods. "Irregardless" (as you like you say...might wanna look that one up...), achievement is certainly NOT a measure of talent - there are hundreds of examples in any given field, where the most talented people never achieved and where the biggest achievers were void of talent.

Hi guys Ace here.
I have been studying the posts of some of the ppl on this site and have come to the following conclusions based on my IQCalcabase software.
tt, Pond.Simba, stivsf1, Rav A, mauricechlela, Marnio, Ollieboyyy, J.Bolam and Golf in the Kingdom are the same person. The software, by analysing their posts came up with a mental age of 2 year 6 months. But the thing was they were all within the same Henderson Bounds on the JXY plots - interesting. This means with 99.9999% certainty they are the same sad person.
Stroke me a Stripper.