Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
Maybe I misread or over-react to your posts - but I think SB was having a pop again with her:
'.....i thought ade was going to play instead of defoe.
defoe was awesome! u play him regularly & he will get u lots of goals!
shame harry couldnt see this & persisted with zimmerframe vdv.....'
So as I mentioned, I'm happy to debate this - hopefully contained here to save 'boring' other forum members.
Back to SB - I keep repeating SB that Daffy is OK, he's not great. He will score, but his history isn't stunning. Try yourself. Look here http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/7975/jermain-defoe?cc=5739 and see what his record is. Then explain what you mean by 'lots of goals'. Give me any season when he's scored (I'll let you count both goals and assists) more than 20 in the league. Give me all the seasons when he's scored more than 15. Then give me when he's scored (including assists) less than 16.
I'll give you a hand, as stats aren't your thing - the format will be 'season-goals-assists-total - number of shots':
2002 10 0 10 No Stats
2003 8 8 16 81
2004 7 0 7 35
2005 13 1 14 99
2006 9 5 14 74
2007 10 2 12 82
2008 12 2 14 60
2009 10 4 14 95
2010 18 4 22 113
2011 4 2 6 68
2012 11 1 12 66
So from what I can see, he's got more than 15 'goals' (Including assists) twice in his career. And one of those was when he scored 5 in one game.
So you may have 'faith' in him to score 'lots of goals', but his record doesn't seem to support it. Well, at least it doesn't to me. So maybe 'arry 'didn't see it' because it didn't happen in Daffy's career so far?
He MAY score more than 16 goals this season - who knows - that's future? I hope he does - or if not him, I hope our team scores 80+ goals. But there's the rub, surely you saw from yesterday, yes Daffy can score, but he's greedy - in my opinion, if he doesn't score, he doesn't lend much else to the team. His role isn't holding up the ball or bringing other players into the game.
I would guess that out of the 'shots' that Daffy had above, there would have been situations in probably a quarter of the cases, where Daffy elected to shoot, rather than play another player in. That's a guess based on what I see of how he plays. Myopic or what?
In my opinion, Defo needs a whole season being the number 1 striker at Spurs and plays every game when fit. THEN we can see if he is the goal scorer we all hope he is.
Personally I think he will be, but time and number of games played (Full games not a 5 min cameo at the end of a match) will tell.
- 2 Replies to Nick
agreed nick. all the stats suggest last season that he would have easily reached 20 goals for the season if he started every game.
u can say its just projected stats john. but even if u were been harsh on defoe, he would still have made 20 goals if he played every game.
he would have had to have a huge dip in form for a long period of time not to have reached 20 goals.
its not his fault harry was being blackmailed by vdv!
the fact u still support harry not bringing on our best goalscorer when we need a goal just shows how far up harrys bum u realy are!
that is simple logic. are like a politician who trys to confuse the matter to get out of your stupid decision.
no matter what pathetic excuse u come up with, not bringing on your best goalscorer when we needed a goal against villa was a huge error.
in fact rarely starting defoe last season was a big error.
if harry played friedel upfront & it went wrong (as expected!).
u would go on about how wonderful hindsight is, & then go on about how friedel holds up the ball better than defoe.
anything to support harry!
i dont know why im going in to it again because its clear u will change logic & the most likely outcome to suit your pro harry stance.
i leave u to convince yourself not picking defoe was the right thing from harry even thou the outcome & all logic suggests otherwise.
keep deluding yourself john, whatever floats your boat.
some people cant just admit when they were wrong.
something both john & harry have in commen!
over & out!
I tried to be fair and show Daffy's whole history. So he hasn't show that he can score 'lots of goals' in the past (I presume lots of goals would mean what, 20+ goals+assists?), only achieving it once in his whole career.
I sincerely hope he does score 'lots' this season (and if he doesn't either someone else does or the team in general does - as we'll need the goals to attempt 4th), but his track record doesn't show it.
That's not a dig at Daffy per se, as I don't think we've had a prolific striker at the Lane for ages. Even Keane and Berbatov (I think Berba would have gone on to be - but that is obviously a guess - as he to me is a class act) weren't - they played well together and got a fair total between them, but their individual goal tallies weren't that high for us.
To me, the closest we've come to having a top striker recently was Ade's performance of 17+11 last season (when most would admit that he could have had more if his finishing had been more clinical).
If you look at the strike rates for our top goal scorers since the EPL (http://www.myfootballfacts.com/TottenhamHotspurPremierLeagueAppearencesGoals1992-2009.html ) there aren't that many achieving that magical 1 in 2 is there?
- 1 Reply to Jlock
"once u got down to 10men & your 1-0 down 5mins in to the 2nd half. u would take a pt all day, i dont care who u are."
why would u take a pt all day no matter who u are?
the match was there to be won. it was against a very poor villa game. we needed the 3pts to keep guranteed CL football in our hands.
but harry clearly says he would settle for a pt all day long.
yes, normally with 10men & 1-0 down u would take a pt.
but this wasnt a normal circumstance. before u said i have taken harrys words out of context, but this time its a direct quote for the actually context, ie- the actual game we are talking about!
he clearly says he had settle for a pt.
john theres no point anyway. u will do your politican act so u can cloud it & then come up with some more rubbish to wriggle out of it.
just like your U-TURN on your football philisophy, despite it being in black and white!
- 1 Reply to Alan H
Ah, but Alan, what you state as a fact, is an opinion. I agree an element, a degree, of selfishness has to be there, but if all strikers exhibited the same traits. how do explain 17-11 for Ade?
Daffy has been compared to VdV in as much as to which player should have been in the team - ok fine - then look at the 'facts' - do a comparison - see here:
If you add all the '1st division' stuff for VdV you get 116 goals and 50+ assists (ok in 'lesser' leagues). A midfielder. Daffy, the goal machine, has the same goals and a third of the assists. Which player would you prefer? Which lends more to a team? Does 'greed' then work?
I've already shown that over their Spurs careers in total, that VdV had a better strike rate than Daffy. And he also 'assisted' others.
Ronaldo is a different class, I would have classed him as selfish - all about his 'image' - but his game isn't one dimensional either. 47 assists and 80+ goals in the EPL - not exactly selfish.
Try the same view of Rooney.
Try it with Van Persie.
Try it with Ade....
Try it with Keane (and he got roundly slated here for not being exactly the best)...
View Daffy alongside who you like (even Darren Bent compares favourably to him) and look at the assists. I'm not convinced so far that Daffy has been the goal machine that is so glibly spoken about. He MAY become one, but he hasn't been for 11 seasons. Like I've said for ages, we haven't had a proven top class striker at the Lane for ages.
So typically it seems that there ARE strikers that score and help and those who just score. Which type do you prefer?
Having said all that, I'd still have a greedy/selfish player in the team at the drop of a hat - if that player was a Greaves or that ilk (a Shearer even). Who, on EXCEPTION, got less than 20+ goals.
But getting on average, 14 or 15 with Daffy? I'm not so sure it's a good trade off. Especially given Daffy's lack of presence. We play with two of the best 'British' wingers. What do wingers normally do? Provide crosses? Who to? Daffy? How many goals has Daffy ever scored from corners or from headers?
Oh well, chacun a son gout.
....Thanks Graeme & remmah,
I am glad someone else see's it the same way I do - I was beginning to think Mr Locke was the only one I would hear from with his usual drivel.
Vertonghen looked a bit slow to start with but he has certainly got the pace of the PL now.
Not sure if AVB changed the system because he recognised it was wrong or because he just felt that panic feeling welling up in his stomach - either way, it worked thankfully. .....'
Well, when talking about what 'arry may have done, it does become a bit pointless for discussion doesn't it? I could equally have said that 'arry, being tactically inept, and lacking a LB would have looked at the squad, and seeing Vertonghen can play LB said to himself '....ah, I'm lacking a LB and lo, what light shines from yonder window? Is that the light of Vertonghen's skill at LB? Surely fate has smiled on me....' and maybe just maybe, he may have started with Vertonghen at LB from the off (given that still left him with two CB's fit in Caulker and Daws). But that would have been tactically inept. Its far better making what may be perceived as a mistake and then correcting it to show how clever you are.
Hypothetical though eh? Any other options of what 'arry 'may' have done that we can discuss? I know SB is keen to discuss playing Friedel up front (or at least she's brought up playing a keeper up front a couple of times in her posts).
Drivel, drivel everywhere and not a drop to drink.
- 1 Reply to Jlock
"Its far better making what may be perceived as a mistake and then correcting it to show how clever you are."
not really john. i dont think u need to be clever or know much about football to know that playing vert at LB & caulker/dawson at CB, makes more sense than playing dempsey,defoe & bale out of position or in positions they are far less effective in.
the 1st option was the far more logical and most likely effective thing to do.
just like i dont think u need to clever to realise going for the prize of 3pts against villa despite the possible loss of 1pt, was the far more logical and most likely effective thing to do.
From Sfer - Hazzard Thread:
'......So he would have joined us except we did not get CL football. For anyone that thinks not getting CL football does not make a difference (although how anyone could think that is beyond me) this says it all.....'
CL is important, but it doesn't stop players from signing for non CL clubs. Citeh were the biggest case in point. Signed loads pre CL - so presumably it was the money? We signed Modric, Bale, Berba, Walker, Vertonghen, Lloris - even Dembele and Sigurdsson.
'....Whether or not you think Hazzard is a great player is a different matter. The fact is Chelsea paid a fortune for him and he was linked to just about every top class team in the World so there are a lot of "experts" that do think he is that good - and we could have had him if only Arry had not made some bad tactical decisions.....'
Well if 'arry made some bad tactical decisions (a man who had NO tacky-tickle nous) over what 120+ games and getting 4-5-4 in the EPL and CL quarters after playing some top teams in Europe, then I'd hate to think what you really must think of AVB, given that so far we have played mediocre teams and done pretty poorly. Isn't AVB an alleged tacky-tickle genius?
'...He is the only one that has come out and said what
he has but how many others were there? Just goes to show how even one point can make such a huge difference. Will we get the chance of CL football again this year?? IMO unlikely.....'
Good - glad you see that it's the points, not when you get them. So remember that at the end of the season when the points dropped against WBA, Norwich are taken into account. Even though they're not 'exciting' points, they are still points dropped at this stage of the season.
'....Last point - we looked awful in the first half against QPR as Rambro has pointed out. When, eventually, AVB changed the team to a 4-4-2 and gave Defoe some support did we look like scoring. Why does he insist on leaving shorthouse Defoe on his own? I like Defoe and always thought he should get a decent run to show he is a natural goalscorer (a very rare talent these days) but he can't do it on his own.
When, or should I say "will", AVB stop thinking he knows it all and has some secret tactical superior knowledge and play a team that looks balanced?
IMO he has been lucky so far (we could very easily have lost 3 - 0 aginst QPR at home) and you cant win anything with luck on its own. ....'
Because that's 'his' tactics - the same as 'arry had his, and Fergie has his and Wenger has his. Surely AVB's tactics (being a tacky-tickle master - didn't you want someone with superior tactical knowledge?) have worked in regards to Daffy? Isn't he scoring goals? SB will now show that on his current form he will 'score lots'. What's wrong with Daffy scoring? 4 goals in 5 = 20+ in a season. Isn't that what we all want?
I did miss all this for the past few days.....;-)
'......"I think at times it's only too easy to get sucked into the 'fantasy football manager' bit and think you know better than the manager. That's the fans privilege, but not their responsibility.
As you say, the manager (and the myriad coaching staff) sees the players all week and tries their formations and pairings. They will 'know' who fits the system and who doesn't, who works well with who and who doesn't. They will then base their squad on that knowledge, niggling injuries, fitness, form, who the opposition is etc. Their job is on the line based on those match day decisions, not like the amateur punters and critics who can bleat all they like (to friends, family and 'social' networking sites) about every aspect, without any consequence"
If that is not the most condescending thing I have ever seen written on this board I don't know what is - you stuck up prat John. ....'
Really? I'll give you an EG. Watching the lead up to the Reading game I was mildly surprised to see Naughton in rather than BAE and went about berating AVB, to find out BAE was simply injured.Why is what I wrote condescending?
Are you happy then to admit that you don't know all the factors in the decisions a manager makes?
I had a discussion with SB a while back re transfers, where she constantly had a go at the manager for the lack of transfer activity - she had no idea of what money had been made available, what restrictions had been placed, who wanted to play for Spurs, what pay structure,...blah blah blah.
That is the point above - simply that it's so easy to judge, when you don't know all the facts..oops there I go again.
AVB will end up being the manager who sold half the squad - if it works, he'll be a hero, if it doesn't he'll be the villain. The facts (if they appear in a memoir somewhere) behind who made the sales/purchases will be forgotten (or never revealed) - the manager typically gets the blame for the squad, even though he may have had little or no involvement. Is saying that also condescending?
I don't see that pointing out how little we know compared to a manager is condescending at all. I think it's something WE all tend to conveniently forget from time time. Don't you forget it? I do. When AVB brought on T'Hudd recently, why did he do it? Do you know or did you 'guess'? What had AVB seen in training? What instructions did AVB pass onto the field with the substitution? No idea? Nor me. At first I thought it defensive, but then saw it may have been the opposite, pushing Dembele on. Which is true? Neither you or me know?
Evening fellow Yids.
I've been trying to get back on here since last week to add my bit(.even had my daughters and sons and thier friends helping toget me back on, without any luck,THEN HEY PRESTO every things back on.)
As i was trying to get back on, i noticed on an ARSE thread(just wanted to see if they were slaging us off) that one of them had posted WHY NO THREADS since the 19th,which is about the time i couldn't get back on(kept asking me to create an alias).
I can just about remember my own name let alone one thats not mine.
Anyway, thank fcuk we're finally back on and after apollagising to the family for accusing them of breaking the computer,i can get back to reading the threads and adding my 2 pennith.
Looking forward to chatting to you all soon.
COYS atb JEFFALL
No John I don't think I am.
I am trying to stop you posting long, tedious posts on just about every thread because it is stopping people coming on here. I am not the one telling everybody on here to rethink whatever they have said because I have been bothered to look up some stat somewhere which might or might not prove them wrong!
I don't think that everybody should be very careful about what they say on here for fear of being contradicted by some pompous idiot who thinks he knows better than anyone else.
I gather from your latest post I have hit a nerve - well I bl00dy well hope so. What was it - the bit about the lack of party invites or the realisation of how condescending your comment was?
"Surely your wit will attract people in their droves won't it? Start a thread headed 'Sfer's witty banter corner'"
Was that your idea of funny John? Did you think to yourself as you were writing that that others would split their sides laughing? If so, your problem is worse than I thought. Poor chap.
Don't you find it odd that you are the only one on here that comes in for this kind of stick? I might be the only one who is voicing it but I have a very short fuse when it comes to putting up with over opinionated, boring fools. If people want to say Defoe is the best or AVB is the worst then I think they should be allowed to without receiving a condescending tomb from people like you. In fact, I would welcome a few more posts where people are free to say whatever they want. That is what used to happen and they provoked some very interesting responses - now they just get you.
'....Ah, at last, you have revealed your true contempt for fans that don't rely on stats John.....'
It's not contempt at all. And I think I've maintained the same stance since day 1. I (that's a capital) like to back up claims I make with facts if I can . To me, if you discuss something other than a preference, then try to use facts if you can. IE If I say 'arry was the best manager we've had since the 60's - I'd need to qualify 'best' (league positions, silverware, win percentage) - and then I'd try to show it. If I said I liked Christian Gross more than Wendy Ramos...that's just a preference. (Actually I wasn't keen on either).
'...You have taken it upon yourself to take issue with any fan that has an opinion not based on fact (If you can call stats facts) and point out the error of thier ways.....'
If anyone wants to say '... I like blah more than blah'... then that is up to them as it is subjective and a matter of taste. You don't like T'Hudd, I do. You didn't like 'arry, I did. Subjective. But when you say 'better' or use a comparative term, then surely you need to know what you're comparing? No?
IE if you said that T'Hudd is crap at passing - and if there were figures on pass success rates and it showed T'Hudd was in the top 10% - then isn't sensible to say that? No?
'....If somebody says out loud that they think Defoe is better than Adebyor it is up to John the Crusader to "prove" that is completely untrue....'
Totally depends on how/what is said doesn't it? If someone says '... I think A is better than B....' it's different to stating '..A is better than B...'. But both may be false depending what 'better' means in their mind.
At first I think I'd need to know in what way Daffy was better. Better at tackling, better record of scoring, better with his head, better...'better' means nothing unless it is qualified, ie unless you know what scale to apply.
I'm no 'crusader', but I will ask what they mean. If they then qualified it and said Daffy scores more than Ade - then I may check to see if they're right - and if they're not, I'll show them the figures. What a sin eh. How mad am I.
'....Exactly how high is that horse of yours John? (the use of stats to prove this is not required)....'
It's odd how people react. I try - I don't always succeed - to address the point being made, not to attack the person. You and SB seem the opposite, you seem to want to attack the person rather than addressing the point. Again, that's your choice.
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