Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
After Bale's woeful dive and now Owen saying that he has 'fallen over' what is the worst form of cheating?
It seems that we are conditioned to accept certain things and to see others in a bad light. The focus seems to be currently on diving (and I'm not condoning Bale at all here - I'll do that later!) - but is it any worse than other forms of cheating?
What do we have:
Fouling a player intentionally - the commentators appear to condone this - you so often hear '...he'll take one for the team for that...' after a player has pulled back or deliberately fouled someone.
Holding/shirt pulling - every game has multiple instances of this. How come every one watching sees this at every corner, but the officials don't?
False claims - how many times do you see this? Claims for offside, goal kicks, corners, throws etc knowing fall well that the decision should be going the other way. I'll even include 'false goals' here - bringing in Senor Mendes and Utd.
Intimidation - the constant act of intimidating the officials to try to gain advantage. Rooney was a typical exponent (although I must admit he seems to have calmed down a bit of late). Old Red Nose isn't even on the pitch and he manages to intimidate the whole FA.
I will now go back on myself and semi justify the dive. If I was kicked as many times as forwards/wingers are, I think I may attempt to avoid the challenges coming in as well. If I then 'truly' lose my footing by getting out of the way, isn't it still a foul by proxy? I would also say at school, we used to flick the heel of a person walking in front of us, so the person tripped 'over their own feet'. That was at walking pace. Minimal contact. What effect when someone is running or already off balance? So is the commentator's '...it was only a minimal touch...' even valid - especially when watching something at 1 frame a second...
To me, the dive can then be excused to a degree, but I can't think of any excuses for the other offences.
NBR, I don't think Bale is a diver per se. I honestly think that 9/10 he is either try...
I don't think Bale is a diver per se. I honestly think that 9/10 he is either trying to get out of the way or is fouled. The Villa challenge was a bit more dubious, but you do see the keeper lining up to have a pop and then changes his mind.
I also heard the commentator have a go during the Scotland game. That to me was a penalty - the defender clipped Bale enough at knee height to push Bale's back leg onto the front, causing him to trip.
I don't see though that you can stop players diving, if you let the other infringements take place. I don't follow the logic of stopping a forward trying to win a penalty, but allow a defender to hold someone trying to stop a goal, or the last defender purposely stop an attacker to stop the advantage.
no, sorry I cant agree...he hasnt 'blatantly cheated' for a reasonable proportion....
no, sorry I cant agree...he hasnt 'blatantly cheated' for a reasonable proportion...he's kicked and fouled time after time, game after game...reckon I might go down easier than most with the lack of protection he's had...and he's smart enough to take the foul, or avoid it...not the career threatening injury...he did not appeal for anything after falling under challenge versus Villa...you can't blame the guy for expecting to get kicked...
A couple of links you folks might find interesting: Someone else's take on Bale'...
A couple of links you folks might find interesting:
Someone else's take on Bale's diving, and a broad spread of comments underneath it: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/tottenham/id/100?cc=5739#
And some stats on players who "won" most fouls (I loathe that phrase, if someone else is caught cheating you don't "win") in the league last season: http://www.eplindex.com/17259/fouled-players-league-opta-stats-comparison.html. Suprisingly (for me) Lennon's not in the top 20.
Someone commenting on the first article refers to Bale as "statistically one of the most fouled players in the league"; the stats say he's 20th in the fouls per mins played, and let's be honest, he's blatantly cheated for a reasonable proportion of them. I don't mind him going to ground on occasion to 'protect' himself as long as he's honest about doing that; I object to the tantrums he has to the ref afterwards.
But back to your original question, I think the reason I don't mind e.g. shirt pulling so much is firstly because it's a variable thing (you can pull someone's shirt a little bit, but either you dive or you don't), and because most of those sorts of offences generally seem to be inkeeping with the spirit of the game in principle, but getting carried away. Professional fouls (what an oxymoron!) and diving are more cynical and intentional cheating.
yes...but it's an enforced respect...rarely will a ref get any praise, far from it...b...
yes...but it's an enforced respect...rarely will a ref get any praise, far from it...but you're right H, there is very much a feeling of 'letting your teammates down' if you transgress...as I personally know only too well, it's often simply giving too much lip...this comes from so many unpunished offences leading to a sense of grievance, leading to an unconrollable rage at life being so unfair and the wish to f****n batter someone...usually just before you get sent off...anyway, moving on...
Nice to see ye--to see ye-- In RU the ref is a figure of respect, Jimmy, you know that fu...
Nice to see ye--to see ye--
In RU the ref is a figure of respect, Jimmy, you know that full well. Any bullshyte and the captain is summoned to face the consequences and get it sorted. Plus the fact, tell the ref or a linesman to fuskc off what would happen..
H---a television, a camera, a tea-set, a lawn mower, a picnic hamper-----
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