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For YEARS i hear about how great Ayrton Senna was. Yeah the guy died tragically and yeah he was very good and maybe amongst the best. The problem is that he was already being overtaken by Michael even when he was at his peak, in a better car and Michael was a novice. Unlike most of you out there I think that the MYTH of Ayrton Senna would have been debunked had he lived. I think better drivers were coming along and he was going to be shown up for what he was. A loud mouthed, arrogant bully. YES A BULLY. If he had employed some of his tactics now he would have been banned from Formula 1. People forget and tend to glorify the dead. His legend has grown in the telling. I will get a lot of flack for this but I feel I have to say it. I DO remember him driving people off the road. I DO remember him bullying younger drivers. I DO remember him employing all the intimidation that comes with being the number on driver and of even assaulting fellow drivers. You people think Michael was bad? You have NO IDEA how tame he was compared to Senna. So give it a rest. Yes he was great but please lets not go over board.
- 2 Replies to Robert
I met Ayrton once and gave him a lift after a practice shunt.
He was arrogant, rude and damnright ungrateful. in those days he was Ayrton de Silva.
Good driver but my lasting impression of him is *sshole!
I met Ayrton as well. I am not saying that he was a bad man. I am saying that deifying someone as the greatest ever is a hell of a badge of honor. Ayrton was not a gentleman on the track and as someone so rightly pointed out, it was a different era. Having said that is that really the case? Ayrton was a hard nosed driver. He gets Kudos. Michael didnt do ANYTHING that Ayrton didnt or wouldnt and yet he is vilified. Along comes LH and he does the SAME things that Michael and Ayrton did and he is pardoned. Why? Because F1 is a British sport. Most of the people who Govern it are British. So what was the black mark against Michael? Well. He won more and did more in almost every category than did Ayrton. As for the person that said Ayrton had a big heart. Yeah well cry me a river..so did Michael..or do we forget that Michael gave millions for psunami relief? So then tell me this. If Ayrton is such an angel then why is Michael such a villain? Did he do anything Ayrton didnt? More to the point was he as bad as Ayrton was?
Interesting post, especially since posts about Senna in here are very few and far between so I don't understand your ranting.
We all have our opinions on who the greatest drivers were. Normally we back them up with reasons and facts. There's no point in comparing drivers from different eras simply because there are so many different factors involved at any time. That goes for any sport - not just F1.
As to whether typing every second word in capital letters is the way to make convincing arguments, I prefer facts and figures.
You can put me wrong but I get the feeling you never saw Senna drive. Many of the posters here not only followed Senna's career but many of the greats before him. Not just on TV but actually at the track.
- 1 Reply to probablygraham
The comparison between Senna and Schumacher is a difficult one anyway, as Senna was an on-track racer and Schumi did a lot of his racing in the preparation. Not just in the set-up, but psychologically. Unlike Senna, Schumi was generally very nice to back-markers so that they wouldn't hold him up as he was trying to pass them. Schumi always made sure he never had any serious competition from a team mate. The Senna-Prost situation would never have happened.
Senna may have been a bully on the track, but he was also an extremely sensitive and compassionate human being. He did loads of charity work, and was the most upset when Ratzenberger died. There are always two sides to these things.
It seems odd to me that someone would start a thread *out of the blue* about how sick they are of hearing about Ayrton Senna, when all that would do is prompt a big discussion of Ayrton Senna. In a way, it's a self-fulfilling thread: "See - told you everyone talks about Senna all the time!" Might have been funny if we'd all just replied, "who?"
Yet again someone with a little knowledge talking rubbish...
You say he was a bully, you say you remember him driving people off the road, you say he intimidated younger drivers..
The same could also be said about your so called mighty schumacher..
The difference being the quality of the drivers was much better in senna's day when most of the drivers had at least won a race..
Nearly forgot, unlike Schumacher, Senna did not get caught cheating on numerous occassions...
Go read some F1 history before coming back with pointless, ill informed views...
- 1 Reply to no Name
This is amusing only in so far as you are wrong in every aspect of your rebuttal. Ayrton wasnt caught cheating? He sure was accused of it enough times. The main difference is that when Ayrton was racing no one was as concerned about how you won more about the fact that you won. Yes blatant cheating was a no no but the running of drivers off the road was not considered a real big deal..or did that only apply to Ayrton and more recently Lewis? What I AM saying is..people like you, and please notice you did mention Michael in your response, give Michael a hard time but not Senna or Lewis. Why is that?
As for the quality of drivers...please cry me a river..Michael was an up and coming driver with Jordan and Benetton and yet there was the great Ayrton being overtaken by a young river in a vastly inferior car. So if the quality was so poor how come Ayrton wasnt holding his own at that stage..
So basically you seem to place an emphasis on being caught..:) not on the actual cheating..such as for example... ummm Lewis and his wonderful Ferrari developed McLaren..:) or on how Lewis has been slammed, by the drivers themselves (Or would you say they too are ill informed?) for being an overly aggressive driver...(Political speak for cheat)..:)
Wow, where did that come from? I will always remember the epic battles between Senna and Prost, yes Senna was very aggressive and a proud man, but Prost was no slouch in the aggressive part and while he surely is a very proud man, he did not display it the same way as Senna. There is also no questions about his generosity, behind the scene, I believe his sister is still working with the children foundation he started.
While one might disparage a living human being, I believe it to be in poor taste to do so once they die, we all carry some baggage, some more than others. Just my opinion.
- 1 Reply to oldcanuck
Your comment about disparaging the dead is noted and I apologise. My issue is not with his talent it is more with the level of hypocrisy when it comes to three drivers:
1) Ayrton Senna..Brilliant but no slouch at the gamesmanship aspects of Formula 1
2) Michael Schumacher... Also Brilliant but much derided and lambasted.
3) Lewis Hamilton... Praised beyond his years for being a great driver, by no means as talented as Alonso, a driver I personally dont care for but talented nonetheless.
1 and 3 are excused for doing all the things Michael did....with the exception of the MC race "stall". Gamesmanship in the 50's thru the 80's but cheating in the 90's and 0's.
Lewis benefits from a great car developed in no small part from ferrari design specs..he drives people off the road...he jostles other drivers...complains incessantly.
Senna..he was a driver from another era. An era where a lot of the things that were countenanced back then are called cheating now.
Problem for Michael was that he started in the era of the Sennas and ended up in the era of the sanctimonious...well sanctimonious so long as it isnt a British driver that is falling foul of the authorities..at which point..you can hear Brits bleating shamelessly about how," Well Michael also did that"...well if you are going to deride Michael for what he did do the same for Lewis...N'est Pas?
Well, of the triple + world champions, looking at win % / pole win %:
Fangio: 45.1%/52.9%; Stewart: 27%/17%; Brabham: 11.1%/10.3%; Lauda: 14.4%/13.8%; Prost: 25.5%/16.5%; Senna: 25.3%/40.1%; Schu: 36.4%/27.2%. Aside from Fangio, who had 51 starts, the win % for Schu (250 starts) and pole win % for Senna (162) starts certainly stand out as the gold standard. And you're not (necessarily) running anyone off the track in qualifying. This is why Schu and Senna are so often heralded as two of the very few best ever. And it's difficult to compare driving characteristics between eras as norms change over time.
Let's start with the first thing and that is you are full of SHIT thinking Ayrton Senna was a myth. Not only was he one of the best drivers ever, he was also a great man who did and does use his money to help the less fortunate in his country. In comparison to Michael Shumacher who does nothing of the sort. As for people going over board, it is easy for people to have blinders on like yourself mark. Yes Michael was a good driver but not as good as you think he is. So you want to give it a rest then open up your eyes.
- 2 Replies to Ray D
Ummm I think you havent read all the comments I made. I said I am tired of AYRTON being portrayed as some kind of Saint...He wasnt. He was just as flawed as Michael and in fact maybe even more. To say that he was the best ever is another thing I disagree with. The only basis we have for comparison in F1 is statistics and championships. As someone said..grading drivers from different eras is difficult so we fall back on stats...and IN STATS...Michael kicks Senna's ***. The other thing you can look at is longevity..tragically Sennas was cut short..but when it comes to Michael..he faced many competitors over many many years and he dominated them. So all i am saying is..I am tired of people stating that Senna was the best..as quite clearly..if we look at records..he wasnt. Now if I hurt your feelings I apologise...no wait...I dont..TOUGH..deal with it:)
Obviously Randy your accomplishments are great, And we are greatfull you found time in your accomplished life to put your comment to us.
Randy by the sound of it you have many years of driving F1 cars and have more knowledge of the history of F1 than everyone put together.
Message board are designed for the armchair critic and by way of
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You dont have to comment or read any of the messages on this board. You can if you choose carry on playing your F1 game on the playstation and inform your buddies on facebook how you set up you car to win a race. If you have time in you accomplished life.
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