Liverpool Message Board
Well OK. I watched 40mins of the 2nd half, but in a disinterested way.
I am a fan, always have been. I wouldn't ever miss a reds game. I love England. I've memories of Robson, Barnes, Waddle, Lineker, Beardsley, even more recently Gascoigne, Shearer, Owen, players who could create, whose name meant something. At the moment, I think we are so dull (but top scorers in the qualifiers....a similar criticism is made of Liverpool in the prem, unjustly in my view so maybe I'm unjustly judging England)....I like watching more when Gerrard plays...obvious bias, but Barnes apart the England team was never choca with Liverpool players in the past either.
It is partly the players. A team with Heskey, Crouch, Carlton Cole, Barry, Lampard, Terry as Captain, Wright Phillips, and a team that has to utilise an ageing Beckham because no-one else can pass the ball long effectively, is NOT a team that can win the world cup. A team that allows its two BEST players in Rooney and Gerrard to be mis used consistently. Gerrard must HATE playing for England. Always on the left, the right, or having to anchor, in favour of the more limited Barry and Lampard in the centre. and why Rooney is allowed to chase all over the pitch instead of staying up top belies belief. If Gerrard does it it is a lack of positional discipline. If Rooney does it it is wonderful energy and effort. Apart from these two, the remainder of the players are very much good honest pro's, Lennon apart who has a lot of potential but that is all it is right now.
It is also partly the Champions League. The best football is found in games between the top teams in the prem and in the CL. England don't have a talent like Torres, like Drogba, like Fabregas, like Iniesta. There is NO international team that can please the eye like Barcelona for example.
Maybe international football is no longer the pinnacle.
I am 34. The big test is this world cup. Because i was bang into 2006, and THAT team I hoped had a chance. Maybe it was all down to 2006 (where we were absolutely useless, Beckham and especially Lampard). Maybe thats where I fell out of love with England. England certainly owes the fans some performances, to draw those like me back in love. They need to come in a big tournament. I just fear that we have too many average players for it to be possible in South Africa. Especially if Rooney or Gerrard are injured!
Firstly, I'd like to address the line of reasoning that since the international teams do not play/train together as much as club teams do, they are not as good, or will never be as entertaining as club teams. This is a fallacy to an extent and teams like Spain, Russia, etc. currently are proof of that. Also, as far back as I can remember, there have been numerous entertaining teams that "gel" very well on the pitch and play like they train together all year round. e.g. Brazil, Holland, etc. Whether a team "gels", entertains, wins, etc. ultimately comes down to a combination of the coach, player ability, and "some" "key" players that play together for club. Robert M brings up a good point with his Beckham/Neville example. If you think about why Spain is so good, and look at their euro performances, you'll see that in the engine room, Xavi and Iniesta play together for Barca. Villa and Silva (Valencia) combined to devastating effect too. You also have the Senna and Capdevilla (Villareal) connection. If you look at the 2006 Italy and Germany squads, in fact, any of the winning squads from previous eras, you will notice this pattern. It leads me to believe that while Liverpool fans rejoiced when Gerrard didn't join Chelsea, it was the end to any chance England would have of a major trophy. I can only imagine what Englang would have looked like at the 2006 World Cup with a midfield of Lampard, Gerrard, and Cole playing week in, week out for club. In any case, the solution to the Lampard-Gerrard problem is Essien.He should be looking for an English grandmother. Play Essien and Cole in the middle and get rid of both Lampard and Gerrard. Now THAT would be some team! Speaking of Essien, did LFC write him a check yet for the lesson he gave on 4th Oct? Jokes apart, international football is all some kids get to see in far-flung places around the world and it is the stuff that turns great players into legends. I see Argentina finally made it, so let's see the almost-incumbent World Player of the Year (Messi) light up the big stage. Good night all; Forza Milan!
- 1 Reply to Vito Ceresa
My ideal world cup would be for England to go a long way....dare I say win it? and for someone or a couple of players to turn themselves into legends. Lets face it....Platts name was made with the Belgium volley. Barnes's with the goal in the Maracana AND his performance against Argentina in the hand of god game, Owens in 1998, Beckhams against Turkey in the qualifiers, (Quite ironic that Beckham really made his name in a game against a team as lowly as Turkey...says it all really....believe the hype??)....I too believe this is Gerrard and Lampards last world cup potentially, probably also the last one for Owen if he goes, for Rio too, so I am hoping (although I'd love Gerrard to win it with a hat trick of blockbuster strikes in the final) for a Lennon, a Walcott, a Milner, Glen Johnson, to stand up and make their names on a world stage. Or maybe there is a name who wil come through this season? Like Owen did? Or there is the obvious. Rooney to confirm he is the great player we all want him to be....for England's sake. I have my worries on that score though. Completely overshadowed by Ronaldo in United's team in the past two years, the GREAT players shine in the best surroundings. Zidane at Real Madrid, Iniesta AND Messi at Barcelona, Gerrard at Liverpool who has continued to be our real talisman despite the arrival of Torres who rivals him in ability. Del Piero at Juve, Baggio before him/with him, Zola at Napoli, even Lampard at Chelsea. These players step up every time their clubs sign new (and supposedly better) talent....to prove THEY are the man. I got the sense Rooney was unable to do that past Ronaldo, and share the burden. Thus at an event like the World Cup does he have that inner belief to be a big star?? Does he even want to be? The truly great players, know they are great, know that when the moment comes they will be there for their team. If gerrard couldtake his club form to international, same with Lampard I suppose, it is probably more likely if England are to do well that one of the established will confirm their greatness rather than a new name step up. Just please NOT BEckham with a free kick in the 90th min at 3-3 with Brazil in the final. I couldn't live with driving past the billboards for the next 50 yrs.
This kind of mirrors something I was reading the other day (can't remember where) but basically saying to win the world cup you need at least 4-5 world class players, with the rest balanced between really top quality and workers.
England however can really lay claim to only have 2 world class players: Gerrard and Rooney. That is not a slur on the rest of the squad, but while many are honest hard working players, they are not, or not any longer world class players. We don't have a Cech or Buffon in goal. We don't have a Ronaldo or Messi providing wing play. We don't have a Xabi or Cesc in the center. And we don't have a natural center forward in the mold of Torres or Drogba.
I still have a little more confidence than you for SA, as last night was really a look at the B-team. But the lack of creativity was obvious. But looking beyond that, unless I've missed something I see it getting worse. I'd expect this to be the last major tournament for Gerrard, but also for Lampard who I'd rate as the best of the rest. We'll also likely loose Terry and Rio at the back, who may not be world class, (at least Terry) have been stalwarts. And, other than Rooney and Walcott, I just don't see anyone who might be considered world class in the next 2-4 years.
- 1 Reply to dsteer_lfc_68
does anybody consider joe cole? hopefully he'll be up and raring to go by the time the world cup comes around and he will add a very much needed creative spark. He should be relatively fresh after all of the time he has been out injured over the last year.
- 1 Reply to Red_Till_Im_Dead
red i agree, i feel a lot more passionate about my club than i do england...in fact i turned the game off at half time and put fifa on.
Robert, u said that maybe it's because they dont play together every week, but thats the same with every national team and u dont see other teams complaining.
However, wasn't it always this way? I remember in the 1970s wondering why the England team was so rubbish when it had all those good players. The answer then as now is surely that they don't play together every week as the club sides do. Notice how long it can take great players to gel into a club side. For Chelsea, a great player's first season is generally disappointing. Subsequent seasons we see how good they are. Think Drogba, Essien, Ballack, Malouda. Some don't ever gel. Robbie Keane.
I remember in the 70s thinking why don't they just put out the Liverpool team for England. It would stuff everyone. Answer was that half the players came from Ireland and they hadn't worked out the English grandmother excuse back then. Maybe the answer is for Drogba and Cech and so on to find English grandmothers in time for next summer.
And all this whingeing about how poor little Gerrard isn't given the chance for England and how Lampard shows himself up to tbe the crap player you always thought he was. (Think about it.) Both of them are playing in a team they don't play in every week. Both of their club sides are built around them to a large extent and work out their excellence twice a week sixty times a year. It isn't going to be the same for England.
Interesting question of whether if Gerrard had moved to Chelsea all those seasons ago they would have built up such a partnership for Chelsea that it could be transferred to England and a winning team built around that. We'll never know. But I remember one of the best bits of the England team of ten years ago was Gary Neville and Beckham on the right, playing and understanding each other as they did at United.