Liverpool Message Board
I don't remember being as disappointed as this in the last few years, a real chance to show we are on the up, improving, getting close to being a real team. We are not. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.
This had banana skin all over it, Villa had been in good form and looked perfectly setup to counter attack against us. We looked sharp in the first half hour and Villa looked a mess but again a plethora of missed chances gives the opposition hope of staying in a game. It was hugely dissapointing as I thought we can make a real move of intent up the table but for all the huffing and puffing, BR can't magic up goal scorers. I thought downing at left back was going to be the weak link but he was one of our best players, we were a victim of our complete opposites. Villa fight like dogs as a unit and are looking pretty efficient in taking chances, just not what the doctor ordered.
I am afraid it could be a similar story with fulham although we won't have any complacency this time around. It seems to take us 30 chances to score a goal and I don't think the manager can be blamed too much for that to be honest, if his team are dominating possesion and creating chances then surely it is the bluntness of the tools that are causing the trouble. So much pressure is already resting at the feet of the January signings, I can't help but feel whoever comes in is going to dissapoint as well because they are going to be expected to score every game!
- 2 Replies to Hobitez
We've been cursed I tell you, cursed.
Blame the Benitez. He put some Spanish hoodoo on the club during his bitter board room battles. We haven't been a free scoring side since that day.
Seriously though it's diffiult to pinpoint exactly but there certainly needs to be some kicks in the back side and fresh blood.
To be honest, this result did not shock me.
Villa played well against an inform Norwich(away) and held their own against the thugs of Stoke. Their Kids are battling.
Henderson should have started, the kid is starting to be more authoritive around the pitch.
Villa had a solid middle and def, three mid and three centre halfs. Nothing wa going to get though. Suarez has to keep dropping short to receive the ball.
Supply from wide, Stirling is looking tired, needs a break. Downing did ok but attacking had a nose bleed even thinking about getting the defender to commit, gutless player.
Allen for me had an absolute disaster.
Physically weak, no determination. He could have prevented all three goals when moves were started in midfield, no urgency in pressing.
Allen only made two forward passes in the whole game, passes that bypass the villa midfield, one got though to Stevie but the second was to Joe Cole which lead to the third Villa Goal.
In the West Ham game, Allen dribbled and got though to the 18 yd box could have shot by using the defender in front of him as a blind spot to the West Ham Goalie but for some unknown reason he had a nose bleed, and passed the responsibility on to to Stirling from only 2 yards. Joke.
Allen and Downing for me are GUTLESS individuals, people that you would not take in to a battle with you or ask to cover your back. BR Please get rid. At least Joe Cole showed some fight when he lost the ball and clattered Bentenke to win possission.
Quastion to all, Is Stevie G losing his roar, in the past he would tell a team mate off or keep taking and controlling the mid.????
To be honest I don't see things as bad as many of you do. Yes it was a terrible result, but I think some of the analysis here is a bit over the top compared to what I saw. My biggest disappointment is not technically how we played, individual performances, or the shape of the team, but that we had not turned the corner as I thought we had last week in terms of believing we can come back if we just stick to our guns.
First half hour or so I think we played as well as we have all year, but as we've done all season without putting the ball in the net. I mean lets be fair, the first Villa goal was completely against the run of play and the first chance Villa had created from open play (they had a couple weak headers from a corner and a free kick before that). We had completely dominated them, and it was not just a question of when we'd score, but how many we'd get, so overcoming a one goal deficit did not seem much of a task to me.
But the second was a gut blow. Got to give Villa credit it was a piece of class football. Up until then I think we'd played very well, but after that our heads went down, the football became more direct, resulting in us giving the ball away way to easily.
For those who are critical of the so called tiki taki football, and want a more direct style, and point to this result as proof we need to be more direct to score, I'd say you've got thing upside down. First half Downing was effective getting forward and cutting inside. Most our chances were the creation of short passes between Stevie, Suarez and Sterling. But second half our passes got longer, and often straight down the middle. Result Villa got bodies in the way and pumped the ball back out.
So my critic is that heads went down, and we defended awfully for the 3rd Villa goal, but most of all that we did not have the courage to stick to what we know works. It may take us more chances than most teams to score, but then again we create many more chances than most clubs. But second half we quit on the formula and just tried to pump balls into the box either from the back or from the flanks, and then wonder why we did not score, when we hardly created a decent scoring opportunity.
- 1 Reply to dsteer_lfc_68
I agree with some of that but would point out that we shouldn't make the mistake of confusing hopeful shots with chances. I know that sounds odd but what I mean is a lot of our "chances" against Villa were hopeful efforts through a crowd. To me, Villa created far more clear cut chances than we did on the day and therefore were the more effective team and fully deserved the win.
Some will argue that we underperformed, some will argue that BR hasn't got the tactics right, some will argue that we don't have good enough players. My guess is that it's a little bit of all of those.
- 1 Reply to RonJ
RON J...AGREE MATE...thats ticki taca for u. Sideways backwards its like that movie "Back to the Future" maybe we should title it "Back to Benitez"....? I still think Kenny should have been given another season dont u ? I dont spose theres enough support out there to start a BRING BACK KENNY!!! movement ?
Had the Reds banged in one of their many early chances this match might have been far different. Same old story.....all the pressure....but no one finishes. Its beyond frustrating.
Sorry mate , got no answers. Better result next time.
- 1 Reply to oscar
Ron J...a few days ago BR was telling the world we should be aiming for 2nd spot and usurping Man C. in Prem ? Today hes back to talking down all expectations of any kind of a successful season ...do u think its possible hes receiving his scripts on a direct fax line from ....FSG in Boston ? Im fed up of his talk of this mythical future that we are slowly rebuilding for. My advice to him and the owners is stop pussyfooting around admit u mistakes u f++++d up in the transfer window letting Andy C go out on LOAN ? AND COMPOUNDED THE ERROR BY NOT REPLACING HIM. So...now show us all u believe in this club break the bank take a leaf out of Abramovitchs book and go for INSTANT SUCCESS and bring in Cavani get rid of all the bloody dead legs on the books sell off any not putting in MAXIMUM EFFORT between now and the end of transfer window in Jan. Joe Coles salary alone is half what wed have to pay Cavani ...come on FSG back BR to the hilt just like u did Kenny and if we are still then struggling in lower half of table end of season...SACK HIM and get somebody in who is proven to be up to the job.... GUS HIDINK ?
Thanks for explaining. I see what your getting at but I don't agree personally.
For me, the only factual evidence that matters are the results. They haven't been good enough so far but there are plenty of games to go.
I'm also not sure that we played any better in November than September but, as you say, that is subjective. On top of that our performances this month have been pretty poor I would say.
Against Villa I think we had a strong first half, and especially good opening 30 to 40 minutes, near or close to the best we've played all season. But I do think we were flat and predictable in the second half, which is my main critic of that match, as we strayed from BR's tactics it seems to me.
Against WHU while not the most attractive game, I think it is fair it was one of our most gutsy performances so far, so maybe it’s a question when evaluating performance whether its only about style, or not. If we'd come back from a couple lucky goals, or an iffy call from the ref then maybe it’s fair to say we underperformed, but I'd say we played ourselves back into that fixture and deserve credit for doing so.
But the irony I was referring to was the fact I put the emphasis on performance despite the results throughout the season so far, but it seemed you put the emphasis on the result when it was poor, but then talked about the performances when the result went our way.
"it seemed you put the emphasis on the result when it was poor, but then talked about the performances when the result went our way"
Firstly, that is factually wrong. I talked about our performance against Villa being poor which was matched by the result.
Secondly, the only reason I talked about performance is because you said that you think we were playing much better in November than we were in September and were using that to justify your "definite steps forward" statement. To counter that, I pointed out that in my opinion we haven't been performing well of late. As I posted above, "for me, the only factual evidence that matters are the results" and they haven't been good enough so far (although there are many games to go) - or do you disagree with that last statement?
I have a different view to you Dave and engage in posts with you and others to try and understand your point of view and to see if I can learn something from it. I'm not interested in picking & choosing facts to suit any particular argument. I want BR and my football club to succeed and I hope very much that they do. It's just that I keep hearing and reading how great things are at Liverpool and then I watch them play game after game (admittedly mostly on a dodgy Internet feed from France these days) and look at the table and I can't understand the hype. I've been a fan of the club for almost 40 years and, until a couple of years back, was a regular attendee home and away. I'd rather trust the evidence of my own eyes than listen to statistics about possession or pundits going on about how BR speaks very well about the game.
In Kenny's first full season, he won our first trophy for a number of years, got to another final and was sacked for finishing 7th without Suarez and Gerrard in many of the games. The performance level of the team last year was every bit as good, every bit as exciting as the performance level this season. After almost half the season we are stuck in 12th, only 7 points off first place but also only 7 points off relegation. Tell me again, where the "definite steps forward" this season are?
ps. I write this full in the knowledge that we have 4/5 "winnable" games coming up.
Sorry that you thought my reply was very long - I try to explain as briefly as possible but maybe my English isn't as good as yours as you always seem to manage to be so brief.
That said, given that over a third of my reply was trying to correct an incorrect assertion on your part - maybe you should take a share of the blame? Or perhaps at least be man enought to withdrawal it?
Sorry I see where you're going. I have a very critical view on Gerrard which many may disagree with. It's probably very contraversial at the very least.
Firstly how many goals have we conceded this year from a sloppy pass in midfield, where we are completely ut open by a lack of midfield cover and wandering full backs? Several I'd say.
Gerrard has often been the midfield culprit in my book being guilty of a sloppy pass and being out of position. In my opinion Benitez realised his wandering tendancies and did two things to counter it.
1. he stuck him on the right where he would be forced to control himself
2, He took him out of teh defensive equation all together and played him behind the lone striker.
Both worked very well as Gerrard was given the license to impact on the game.
Also I believe that Gerrard is an extremely difficult player to work with (on the pitch). Lampard couldn't work with him and Benayoun was the same> Seldon did we see the two on the pitch at the same time and I believe that's one reason why. Injuries and Benitez's defensive tendancies were the others but when they did play you could see them trying occupy the space.
The 3 man midfield as demands a disciplined approach which we haven't quite got yet. It also needs to be fluid enough to allow the short passing game. See Barcelona. Their movement is short and quick. Gerrards is longer.
Should Rodgers employ as system that works for Gerrard? Not really because Gerrard is one thing - flexible. He can adapt his game on top of his ability to win a game single handed. His recent England perfromances show how he can curb his game.
I also think that when you look at where we are then a complete restart / reboot becomes sensible. We were such a mess that it makes perfect sense to pull everything togather and basically change the whole way the club does things. It makes sense while you're at the bottom of the cycle, not at the top. Barcelona did it and look at them now.
Both but what if you don't have the right knife to cut the turkey? You'll make a hash of it no matter how skillful a butcher you are.
Rodgers can only use the knives he's been given.
Firtsly their genarlly quite blunt and secondly there's not enough of them.
If things are bad come March then perhaps your point becomes more valid.
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