Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
To a degree Fab - but a change in fortune for a Bale, Wilshire, Townsend can suddenly make all the difference - without wholesale changes. AVB was to sell Daws (maybe he should!) and up until the weekend we had a tight defence (on paper) - but is the defence as good as the stats imply (Walker - not sure, Vert at LB - not sure, Daws/Kaboul - not sure, Chicachita - unproven).
But you're right in that time changes everything - a couple of good wins, with a few goals from the strikers (whoever) and we may start to see the AVB 'style' (whatever that is) prove itself.
Still not convinced. The players who left either were on the edge of the squad anyway (Jenas, Bentley - T'Hudd had been out for a while, and Livermore hadn't really broken in) - Bale was the main loss. T'hudd and Livermore left squad holes, but didn't HAVE to be sold - ditto for moving on BAE.
IMHO it's a bit pointless selling on a midfield simply to have to replace it - if that is what you're saying. And as we've seen, it then makes it harder for the manager to #$%$ the new players - as HOW do they get the pitch time required to bed them in? So didn't AVB then create the problem (unless he's not responsible for buying and selling - and Baldnini is). Changing one or two at a time to fix a perceived problem seems a more sensible approach IMHO.
And isn't it a bit odd that the manager has played more of the players he already had than the new boys - Chadl valley? Capoue (ok was injured), Lamentable, Chicachita - the only one with good pitch time is Little paul - oh and a striker who plays on the shoulder like Daffy (and requires service that we're not providing). So wouldn't #$%$ing what he had and filling weak spots be the way?
We still have gaps at FB, striker (maybe not if Ade will now get game time) and maybe no 10.
Daws - c'mon, if you're talking about the Negredo? goal - I'm not sure any defender would have stopped that turn. And the 'too tight', 'not tight enough' is one of those commentary 'funnies' isn't it? As the pundits love to say, when pointing out a perceived 'error', that 'he was too tight/not tight enough there' (delete as appropriate) - so what is the 'right' amount of tightness - obviously the amount required to stop the 'error'. But that level of tightness may then be tighter or looser than an effective piece of defending - so its a very woolly/bland subjective comment isn't it?
Oh well. Not even half way through the season - by the end of the season all the new boys are regulars and we're banging in goals for fun and AVB will be proven
Personally, I think this is one of the reasons 'arry went. I'm not sure that the buys were all to do with AVB - BUT, AVB does not come across to me (obviously without any knowledge of his personality other than what appears on screen) as the sort to stand up to a policy he didn't agree with.
Which is right - 'arry's style of buying to fix a problem - although that did have an effect of then ageing the squad - or a blanket buy of 'available' 'talent'? I'm not sure.
All I see is that the purchasing policy this time created more problems than it fixed - and that is frustrating as there won't be many times in Spurs history where we get a windfall of £100m.
Oh well, they'll (AVB and the team) probably now go and prove me totally wrong by scoring a score against Tromso and then hitting Utd for six.
I'm not so sure the blame is the players. If you look at the 'stats' on the Citeh game, the stats show roughly what we've been doing all season - apart from leaking goals.
We have possession and we have 'attempts' but we (IMHO) don't create chances.
The defensive stat also then (IMHO) belies what has been happening, as I think that other teams seem to find it relatively easy to create chances against us - whether they've taken them in the past is another thing. But Citeh did. They have strikers who can - and createive players who can (good job Silva wasn't playing).
I saw a write up saying that Daws got caught out of position too much - I would agree, but that seemed to be driven by our two FBs pushing on and leaving huge gaps every time Citeh came forward.
So I'm not sure the players are to blame, when the wrtting has been on the wall. I'm not sure that AVB is either - as I can't believe any right minded manager would have bough a Daffy playalike in Soldado - when the whole ethos of AVB seems to have the midfield scoring rather than providing.
And I don't see that buying 5 midfielders solved any problem that we had. We now seem to have a bigger issue deciding who to play. So again, I'm not sure that was AVB. BUT AVB is the manager and if he had doubts as to the players coming in, then he should have been shouting at the top of his lungs.
So, we still seem light at FB, striker etc after having spent £100m. So surely that is not the players fault?
I still think though that AVB needs at least til the end of the season, but I doubt his initial attack on the fans and now his attack on the players is doing his credibility any good at all.
And I still don't feel confident about playing the top 4 teams - I'm not sure I even fancy the game against Southampton.
I may end up being the pessimistic one here - and the optimistic one, given that it only appears to be me - but yesterday's result was just waiting to happen IMHO.
I know this season we have been vaunted with having a mean defence - and the stats had backed that up - and conversely we had the team with the most attempts. So why be pessimistic? Mainly as from what I saw, we never really did anything with the ball. Townsend took over from Bale with a shoot on sight policy as did most of the three we played behind the striker, so Soldado had become as isolated as the other strikers we'd played for the past two seasons, and at the back, we're still lacking at both left and right back (Walker, ok going forward, but...).
So who's fault was yesterday? Was it the team as AVB implies? Or was the team a team waiting to lose because of AVB?
I'm also getting a bit frustrated with being told that it will take time to bed the players in. I'm lost by that, as half the players weren't/aren't even getting pitch time. Of the purchases from the summer, which have actually played on a regular basis. Soldado and Paulinho? Is that it?
I could follow the argument if the 7 players had come straight into the team and disrupted any 'style' we had developed - but that just doesn't seem to be the case.
But still, we're still there or there abouts - I just hope after AVB appearing to lay the blame on the team, he can then lift them for the Tromso and Utd games,
- Reply to Jlock Nov 15, 2013 08:52
But isn't that the reason that our strikers for the past couple of seasons have had a poor return? The providers no longer see it as their prime role to provide. Maybe again, AVB is happy with that and wants to then spread the goals across the front 4. Makes it hard then to blame Daffy or Soldado or Ade or Kane or whoever is then playing up front for not scoring though.
...back to counterfeit - when I was kid, I am almost certain you could buy club badges and append then to 'stuff'. I had a while long sleeved shirt with such a badge stitched on. I thought I looked the bees knees - especially with my Puma Tottenham boots. Couldn't play football for toffee though. Did make our school 3rd XI once and played Ardingly College.
Memories eh? I'm sure as I get older I make more of them up....
- Jlock by Jlock Nov 15, 2013 08:52 Flag
I see Spurs are 'doing' Fleet for using a Cockerel as the main part of their logo. I suppose that is semi understandable in a way, but it does seem a bit like a speed camera to me. Target the easy target. I wonder how many swaet shops are in operation in Asia where actual 'real' counterfeit products are being created (I won't say to deceive as from what I've seen of such counterfeits - Live Stress jeans for instance - they are more a tourist 'must have' - like a Spanish donkey). So is it sensible to go after a local club just to prove a point - and is '... If we do not take action to stop Fleet Spurs using our cockerel logo, it can undermine our ability to stop other unauthorised people who use our logo for commercial purposes, such as counterfeiters. ..." this really the case? Any court cases pending in Asia? - or are we too busy trying to create Asian support to risk taking a manufacturer there to court? Cynical? Moi?
Townsend. I like wingers. I like that style of play where a team stretches the opponent - opening gaps, scaring FBs - getting the ball into dangerous areas in the box. Acting as providers - as well as scoring the odd one or two. But I read from an article on Andros that he thinks scoring (and providing) more will make him indispensable. Only if that means he is playing 'well'. Just being a scorer or a provider isn't the be all and end all IMHO. Knowing what to do and when to do it to me identifies the good players from the average. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and having the ability to achieve it 90% of the time, separates the good from the great players. I think the legacy of Bale has a lot to do with this and maybe, just maybe the way AVB wants us to play. Just because we're lacking goals at the moment, cutting inside and having a dozen shots a game just isn't being a 'good' let alone great player. Bale was going the same way. I think I recall that he was having the most attempts in virtually every game - ....contd
Not sure that it's that different from last season - just that Bale was more accurate when shooting so masked the lack of provision to the 'strikers' by scoring himself. The assists have dropped from the midfielders, and I think AVB sees midfield as the main provision of goals. Not a bad idea - spread the goals - but I'm not sure where that leaves strikers like Soldado/Daffy. I saw an article recently expressing just this - that for this to work, a different type of striker is required who can create their own chances more and work back into midfield.
Does that work though without CL football? Isn't that the problem with the EPL - it is two leagues in 1. Even if you drop out of the CL early it's worth what, £20M - that's a huge figure as a difference in earning between two clubs. A top quality player a season. CL funds CL football. Utd have had it for years, Woolwich, Chavs even Pool. Citeh are now becoming regulars. That, in way of 'growing the club' needs to be us as well.
So, if Levy/AVB/Baldini are planning for the future, I would still (personally) have focused on the CL slots this season - then bought to consolidate that slot next. Not buy umpteem midfielders that MAY help us also win the Leaugue cup, Europa or FA. As again to me we're already/still light at LB, CF and even with the purchases MAY be light at 10 and LM. But if AVB keeps picking up points with poorish 'style' performances, we'll hopefully get there.
Isn't that one of the problems though? Wholesale changes become a problem rather than a solution. I don't dispute that each of the players bought may turn into a Spurs legend.
This season, to me, was the ideal chance to make the top 4 a permanent position. Changes in managers at Chelsea, Utd and Citeh - your bunch still doubting in Wenger (or were pre-season!) - Pool still not looking like challengers - and Suarez is just a liability waiting to happen.
So instead of just strengthening where we needed it (and I would have been happy for AVB to decide that) - we seem to buy 5 midfielders (when we'd already bought Dembele, Dempsey, Holtby, Glyphi already) - and still then be talking about winning every piece of silverware possible. IMHO, the league THIS season should have been the obvious priority - as another season when the top clubs all change manager isn't likely to occur too often.
But that also then gets away from the style of AVB - I just think I will have to get used to a more cautious approach - as I don't think AVB is an 'audere' character.
Strange how we all feel different things. For me, the 'fear' of the big teams stopped roughly with BMJ, and then through 'arry, but it has come back with AVB. And it's not just the 'big' teams. I feel at times it's like waiting for a bubble to burst - I just haven't seen performances that to me warrant the position we're in - but having said that I haven't been totally convinced by the performances of the other 'big clubs' either - although Woolwich have been putting in some performances that worry me.
Call me a cynic, but the '...the fans made all the difference....' comment seemed more like a man either told that the fans are the ones who pay his wages or a man trying to deflect attention away from a £99billion team only winning on penalties (and the odd one at that) against a team who cost just south of two bob.
And if it takes a crowd of 36,000 to make that difference, I hate to think what is required for us ever to beat a team by more than two at home.
...about the bunch here - Sfer would have it that I drove them away - but I would simply guess that the faffing around with the links being lost off the Yahoo page, the use more of social networking sites to abuse people etc have had their impact. Are 'forums' a dying method of chatting - a bit like landlines...? Seems the one's I belong too are dwindling - hang on, Sfer may have a point.....
I'm not sure that the fans are/were anything but behind HIM (in general), but fans sing when (what) they want, when they want. They tend to try to lift the team when they're down and sing from 'joy' when winning. The problem with Spurs is that we're doing 'well' in way of points and places - so there's no singing required to lift the team to win per se - and the football just isn't (IMHO) of a style to get them singing from joy - a no man's land. So it's a two way street - if AVB wants the fans to sing, then the style has to give them something to sing about. Be amusing to hear what songs are sung tonight.
Irrespective of what some pundits think, football as a spectator sport IS about entertainment - the players are paid like film stars. It's only the clubs who make money out of the punters who want to keep the '....its not about entertainment....its about loyalty....its in the blood....' bit alive - at it's in their interest. If George Clooney turned out boring performance after boring performance, would theatres still be packed with people watching and believing the Studio line of '.....its not about entertainment....its about loyalty... George is an icon...he's in your blood....'. Football for years has relied upon the Emperors new clothes stopping the fans from seeing that what they're presented with 50% of the time is absolute dross.
The last paragraph was tongue in cheek - but I take my lead from Danny Blanchflower:
"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It’s nothing of the kind. The game is about glory. It is about doing things in style, with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom.”
...and remind me again what our motto is: Audere est Facere? - which if my schoolboy latin doesn't fail me means Audi's are made...
Before I start, I admit that I am still not convinced by AVB, so my comments are biased.
I really think that AVB is walking a dodgy line by having a go at the fans. I am still quite happy to give the man at least til the end of the season, but so far, the football we have been playing (IMHO) since he took over has been somewhat lacking for me. I can't deny that he's been getting results, but I'm not sure that simply getting results is what 'fans' in general are after. We seem slow in moving the ball and lacking in movement - loads of possession (which you'd expect with quality players) - but a lack of focus.
I also know that a lot of the playing staff has changed and players take time to settle, but I had hoped that by now we would have been playing with a bit more flair and panache - even with just using the 'old' players.
What also concerns me is that I thought this season, with the changes at Chelsea, City and Utd - and with Pool and the Woolwich bunch still not quite the finished article, that we could have steadily improved and pushed on - and had that chance as the other 'top' teams were also in transition. But then we go out and spend stupid money on a whole raft of players, which then gives AVB the issue of working out his best 11 - which has the inevitable impact of slowing down the development of a particular 'style' (do you play Townsend or Lamela, Holtby or Eriksen, Sandro or Dembele, Lemmon or Chadli, Capoue or...which centre back pairing? Who at left back? Do we need Rose and Walker for the style to gel?......match any 10 issues from 100 combinations).
I still don't think that spending the Bale cash on a raft of players was sensible without having a target plan. I personally prefer the 'see an issue and fix' type approach.
I will end by then saying though, that I am also not certain that AVB is the problem - I am still at a loss as to who is the person who sources and buys the players - was it a Levy/Baldninny thing to spend the money - and was
Sell him to Barcelona for E120m (just to pee of Ronald McD and Bale) and then spend the money on buying another 5 midfielders, whilst selling Soldado, Ade, Daffy , Walker and Naughton. We'll then extend Daws contract another 12 years and make him club captain for life.
Difficult comparison given their styles of plan. When both are on song, I would go for Ade - as his 'style' is more to my liking. But given that both appear to have a habit of dropping form on a regular basis, I'd rather that AVB had tried to get in another striker in the window and sold on the pair of them.
Do you not think we're looking light at right back (with Walker and Naughton) and left back (with Rose and Vertigo at a push) and up front with Soldado and Daffy (on the assumption - maybe false - that Ade has already played his last game) - both of whom are also getting on.
Hence my comment re the scattergun. A blanket overhaul of midfield, but no specific fix of certain areas.
I think my perception is that either AVB doesn't even believe in himself, or the purchases last season weren't his. We have hardly seen Holtby in a Spurs shirt. Dempsey came and went (even though he did score a dozen or so). Glyfi - looks like he may get a game, but then who doesn't play - and Dembele...?
So we spend the Modric/VDV money overhauling midfield - lose two and bring in 3 - and the next season lose another 3 MFs and buy in 5 - and at the same potentially sideline the players only bought the season before. It just doesn't seem 'planned' to me.
I'm not impatient - as I'm happy to give AVB til the end of this season to judge him and the new boys at least a couple of seasons to see how they fit.
But football today is about results rather than performances, and although I'm happy to wait and see, I doubt that Mr Levy will be happy with spending £100M if we don't improve. And improve in that context isn't just playing prettier/better football. So that would imply to me that CL is a minimum - and that requires goals being scored.
My concern is that time is a luxury - Wenger basically said the same - that changing squads wholesale can be a dodgy thing. And I know you don't think that buying a new midfield and forward line is a scattergun approach, but it's hardly a '...we have an issue there...let's fix that...' type approach. And now to find what 'blends' and works may take time as there are a fair few combinations.
Hopefully, AVB will find the blend in the next few games - and the goals will come from across the team.
Norwich - not a bad performance - and for virtually 90 minutes.
Still a bit ponderous in the final 3rd - and I don't recall Soldado being presented with that many chances.
Where will the goals come from this season? Will Townsend / Paulinho / Chadli / Eriksen / Lamela / Glyfi / Soldado fill the gap left by Dempsey/Bale/(Ade-Daffy)?
So far Townsend seems to like to have a shot or two - whether then that diminishes his role as a provider - and Glyfi has obviously now scored a couple.
Looks like it will be difficult to tell, until AVB decides on which of the players make his main 11 - as I'm still not sure, if Glyfi is going to start with Dembele and Townsend, why we bought 5 midfielders.
Wait and see what evolves over the next few weeks I suppose.