Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
It could be argued that Arsenal have already played tough games without key players, or at least players that were seen as 'key' before others stepped up to the plate (think Ramsey over Wilshere, or Flamini over Arteta, or Mertesaker over Vermalean).
Nowt wrong with Bendtner or Adebayor apart from their own willingness to apply themselves fully.
Adebayor is capable or ripping teams to shreds and Bendtner played one hell of a part when Arsenal beat Barca and , he left the pitch to a standing ovation last night.
Those two are their own worst enemies IMO.
True Hull are not supposedly too tough an opponent, yet they beat Lpool easily and Arsenal have been better on the road than at home in recent times (due to the w**ker home 'supporters' who slate their own and then wonder why the team is underperforming! The mind boggles).
Erm, I am not sure that is a good example Fab. Hull...at home...Bendtner....2-0?? I was embarrassed to see Adebyor come on for us but I would be cringing if it were Bendtner. As I said, your lot are playing really well but the real test will be against the top teams when you have a couple of injuries to key players. IMO Ar$e don't seem to have another gear that they can shift into when needed. Citeh do and for that reason, I have my money on them to win the PL.
Arsene made 5 changes to the starting line up tonight against Hull (both full backs, two in midfield and Bendtner on) and in all honesty, that is the best I've seen the team play all season.
And deservedly so Fab. Your lot are playing really well, full of confidence which is what happens when winning, and Ramsay is an unexpected source of goals. Can you keep it up? Not sure, especially if you get a couple of injuries as you don't have much depth in the squad but at the moment....credit where it is due!
Update Sfer; you lot also know Arsenal are 7 points clear at the very top of the Prem this morning.
(sorry chaps, I couldn't resist!)
Ok so lets just look at what we actually know. First, AVB had a couple of good seasons with the Man U of Portugal which many people could argue a chimp could manage. Second, he came to Chelski and upset the players, played negative football and was dumped before he could do more damage. Third, he arrives at Spurs apparently having learnt his lesson about upsetting the senior players at Chelski and immediately tries to sell fans favourite, Dawson, but then when that fails makes him Captain. Bale goes - not his fault - and he at least has a hand in the buying of several very expensive players. He then decides that the attacking style we used to some success is not what he wants. He plays one striker whose success was always with another striker and plays him on his own. He plays a right footed winger on the left and a left footed winger on the right meaning very few crosses and even fewer of any quality and because we have 2 wingers only one player is in the box against at least 2 or 3 or even 4 defenders. Those wingers come inside most of the time. The defenders know this and play accordingly. The space on the edge of the defensive box is crowded meaning shots are mainly from outside the box by players not known for scoring. The full backs are encouraged to get forward meaning the two centre halves have to go wide to cover them leaving a gap of 50 yards between them which attackers just love. AVB switches players around like chess pieces trying desperately to find success. This means players don't have the chance to "gel" resulting in lots of sideways and backward passes. The player that we have been trying to off load due to lack of effort is recalled in desperation (Adebyor) much to everybody's amazement and our oppositions amusement. Everybody knows we are short at left back but he spends all the money on even more midfielders which means, when Rose is injured, we have to play one of our best CB's at LB. When will we wake up and get rid of this idiot? Freund!! NO!
Jlock...I must say that I'm not trying to convince anybody with my comments, as I don't know whats right or not, its just the way I think the reasoning for the changes were made. As I say, I don't think it was a case of just improving the then team, but a fundamental change to the squad and style of the club as a whole. It doesn't mean I agree it was right, but an opinion as to why the club bought so many players at once rather than concentrate on specific areas. I think the pressure was on the club to spend the Bale money, so should it have been spent on 1 or 2 top quality players ( within our wage structure of course ) when there was so many weak areas of the squad that needed sorting out ( and still does )? I know what I would have liked to of seen, but I repeat, was it strengthening or changing the team in mind?
In my comments about Daws, you will see I acknowledged he was done by a piece of skill by Negredo. Your right about the commentaries when the question is asked " is he to tight or should he stand off ". but surely a player with Daws experience should know when and which players he should be tight against or give a yard too. When he gets it wong, that qualifies as a mistake to me, as he knows as well as we do, that he can not afford to get turned with his lack of pace. By your comments, I take it you feel it was perhaps AVBs fault rather than the players for the overall result, so my question to you is where do you place Lloris part in the defeat in particular, compared to your misgivings to the system and pace of the game we play at?, because I thought, until Lloris made the same error for the second goal, we were playing quite well and taking the game to city. One other point on players bought, how many could invisage the impact Townsend has made. so that could explain why Lamela and Chadli were bought but now seem unneeded when the money could have been put elsewhere....Hindsight eh?
To a degree Fab - but a change in fortune for a Bale, Wilshire, Townsend can suddenly make all the difference - without wholesale changes. AVB was to sell Daws (maybe he should!) and up until the weekend we had a tight defence (on paper) - but is the defence as good as the stats imply (Walker - not sure, Vert at LB - not sure, Daws/Kaboul - not sure, Chicachita - unproven).
But you're right in that time changes everything - a couple of good wins, with a few goals from the strikers (whoever) and we may start to see the AVB 'style' (whatever that is) prove itself.
Still not convinced. The players who left either were on the edge of the squad anyway (Jenas, Bentley - T'Hudd had been out for a while, and Livermore hadn't really broken in) - Bale was the main loss. T'hudd and Livermore left squad holes, but didn't HAVE to be sold - ditto for moving on BAE.
IMHO it's a bit pointless selling on a midfield simply to have to replace it - if that is what you're saying. And as we've seen, it then makes it harder for the manager to #$%$ the new players - as HOW do they get the pitch time required to bed them in? So didn't AVB then create the problem (unless he's not responsible for buying and selling - and Baldnini is). Changing one or two at a time to fix a perceived problem seems a more sensible approach IMHO.
And isn't it a bit odd that the manager has played more of the players he already had than the new boys - Chadl valley? Capoue (ok was injured), Lamentable, Chicachita - the only one with good pitch time is Little paul - oh and a striker who plays on the shoulder like Daffy (and requires service that we're not providing). So wouldn't #$%$ing what he had and filling weak spots be the way?
We still have gaps at FB, striker (maybe not if Ade will now get game time) and maybe no 10.
Daws - c'mon, if you're talking about the Negredo? goal - I'm not sure any defender would have stopped that turn. And the 'too tight', 'not tight enough' is one of those commentary 'funnies' isn't it? As the pundits love to say, when pointing out a perceived 'error', that 'he was too tight/not tight enough there' (delete as appropriate) - so what is the 'right' amount of tightness - obviously the amount required to stop the 'error'. But that level of tightness may then be tighter or looser than an effective piece of defending - so its a very woolly/bland subjective comment isn't it?
Oh well. Not even half way through the season - by the end of the season all the new boys are regulars and we're banging in goals for fun and AVB will be proven
Last season, at this point in time, Arsenal were lying in 10th position after basically revamping the squad. The first half of the season Arsenal struggled terribly, the second half of the season Arsenal had the best run of results in the league.
I really think Spurs fans should take a lesson from those Arsenal fans who now have egg on their faces after slating their own team and manager so vehemently.
Players need time to settle, both to the game and to their new surroundings, some adjust much quicker than others. Hell, even Ozil is looking ordinary (ish) today!
The reason I say the players were to blame for the city defeat is because Lloris gifted them the first two goals through his mistakes. Dawson, ( I'm not sure if it was the 3rd or 4th ) because he got too tight to the player, and then got out skilled for another goal, ( fair enough ). The point being 4 goals by player errors rather than any formation. I take the point that we have probably gotten away with some results defensively and getting away with 1 nil wins. The point we don't create chances seems abit of a confusing statement when you consider Krul actually made 14 saves, that's saves, from about 30+ attempts, and Marshal at Cardiff made 11 saves which to me shows that chances are being created. Whether the chances are taken is a different matter. I understand we want to see the fast flowing football that we have seen over the years, but I wonder, IF we had played the same way as we are at the moment, but had taken some chances and scored 3 or 4 goals in games, would we still be saying we're playing boring football? do goals decide if we play well, or is it the overall performance that dictates? Getting 5 midfielders in I can understand, as the ones we exchanged for were not of the quality to take us forward, i.e Jenus Bentley, an ageing Parker, a pedestrian Huddlestone and an average run of the mill player in Livermore, but off course there were more obvious areas that needed improving but the then midfield would not have carried us forward and I think Levy sees this as the make or break season for us to gatecrash the top four while the Bale money was available. It wasn't a case of strengthening the team, but changing the whole structure of the team. I think the midfield mistake was that we got similar types instead of getting at least one playmaking maestro who could pass the ball with vision and dictate the pace of the game like Modric did.
Personally, I think this is one of the reasons 'arry went. I'm not sure that the buys were all to do with AVB - BUT, AVB does not come across to me (obviously without any knowledge of his personality other than what appears on screen) as the sort to stand up to a policy he didn't agree with.
Which is right - 'arry's style of buying to fix a problem - although that did have an effect of then ageing the squad - or a blanket buy of 'available' 'talent'? I'm not sure.
All I see is that the purchasing policy this time created more problems than it fixed - and that is frustrating as there won't be many times in Spurs history where we get a windfall of £100m.
Oh well, they'll (AVB and the team) probably now go and prove me totally wrong by scoring a score against Tromso and then hitting Utd for six.
I'm not so sure the blame is the players. If you look at the 'stats' on the Citeh game, the stats show roughly what we've been doing all season - apart from leaking goals.
We have possession and we have 'attempts' but we (IMHO) don't create chances.
The defensive stat also then (IMHO) belies what has been happening, as I think that other teams seem to find it relatively easy to create chances against us - whether they've taken them in the past is another thing. But Citeh did. They have strikers who can - and createive players who can (good job Silva wasn't playing).
I saw a write up saying that Daws got caught out of position too much - I would agree, but that seemed to be driven by our two FBs pushing on and leaving huge gaps every time Citeh came forward.
So I'm not sure the players are to blame, when the wrtting has been on the wall. I'm not sure that AVB is either - as I can't believe any right minded manager would have bough a Daffy playalike in Soldado - when the whole ethos of AVB seems to have the midfield scoring rather than providing.
And I don't see that buying 5 midfielders solved any problem that we had. We now seem to have a bigger issue deciding who to play. So again, I'm not sure that was AVB. BUT AVB is the manager and if he had doubts as to the players coming in, then he should have been shouting at the top of his lungs.
So, we still seem light at FB, striker etc after having spent £100m. So surely that is not the players fault?
I still think though that AVB needs at least til the end of the season, but I doubt his initial attack on the fans and now his attack on the players is doing his credibility any good at all.
And I still don't feel confident about playing the top 4 teams - I'm not sure I even fancy the game against Southampton.
Part Two....So to the question, is AVB to blame?. If he sends the team out with the instuctions to keep possession by passing sideways and backwards with the thought being, if we have the ball, they cant score, then yes, he has to take the blame. If he tells the full backs to bomb forward as soon as we get the ball, without telling one of the midfielders to stay back as cover, then yes he's to blame for when we are caught short at the back when a move breaks down, especially as we play a high backline. If it's the players taking it on themselves to play it off the cuff and leaving themselves wide open, then again, he is to blame because he should blast the team for not playing as he wants them to. All managers stand or fall with the players they buy in. Some can be very good and adapt very quickly, while others need a lot off time. Some can be very good, but unable to adjust physically to the the pace and strength off the PL, so again the manager must take the blame as he should do his homework and make sure they have the mentality and desire to adapt to a different culture and style. The problem for us fans is, that we don't know what is being said and done by the manager and his coaching staff and we should bear in mind that he is still very young and relatively inexperienced and needs to earn the respect of his players, and if he cant, then he must take the blame for not being strong enough. This is all IMO of course, and theres many other opinions that I could give as I'm sure all other fans could, but it seems there are more questions than answers.
If we take the 6nil result first, then you have to blame the players. A manager will send his team out with a system of play that they would of trained and been prepared for and supposedly all the players knowing their role. How do you legislate for the keeper gifting 2 goals with the first straight from kick off? Does the manager tell the team from kick off, play it backwards and get it to the keeper? I doubt it. Does he tell the midfielders not to try passing the ball more than 3 metres? again I doubt it. Does he tell Walker to get forward and stand about around the oppositions penalty area when he hasnt got the ball instead of getting back in defense? I wouldn't have thought so. The system should work, as our possession stats and attempts on target would suggest in most games, so is it a fact that the players we have are just not good enough as a team? Individually, I would say we have some good players, but not the right mix to make a good team. I cant see one player who can spray the ball about from midfield to wide positions to switch play quickly or a pass over a defense to get behind them. Instead, all we see, are short passes through the middle which in turn causes congestion and slow build up which allows the other team to get back and organised. Some call for a 442 formation, but IMO opinion we don't have the right sort of strikers to play it. You need a Suarez or Rooney type who can drop off and control the ball and have the skill and flair to work their way in too the box and link up with the other striker and have a teamwork mentality, and we don't have that. We ask, why do our wingers keep cutting inside? well the answer is obvious to me, we don't have an Andy Carrol type forward so what is the point off putting in crosses for short players like Defoe or Soldado?.
I may end up being the pessimistic one here - and the optimistic one, given that it only appears to be me - but yesterday's result was just waiting to happen IMHO.
I know this season we have been vaunted with having a mean defence - and the stats had backed that up - and conversely we had the team with the most attempts. So why be pessimistic? Mainly as from what I saw, we never really did anything with the ball. Townsend took over from Bale with a shoot on sight policy as did most of the three we played behind the striker, so Soldado had become as isolated as the other strikers we'd played for the past two seasons, and at the back, we're still lacking at both left and right back (Walker, ok going forward, but...).
So who's fault was yesterday? Was it the team as AVB implies? Or was the team a team waiting to lose because of AVB?
I'm also getting a bit frustrated with being told that it will take time to bed the players in. I'm lost by that, as half the players weren't/aren't even getting pitch time. Of the purchases from the summer, which have actually played on a regular basis. Soldado and Paulinho? Is that it?
I could follow the argument if the 7 players had come straight into the team and disrupted any 'style' we had developed - but that just doesn't seem to be the case.
But still, we're still there or there abouts - I just hope after AVB appearing to lay the blame on the team, he can then lift them for the Tromso and Utd games,
I think seeing as FleetSpurs are a tribute club to Spurs, we are being a bit OTT on this. If I stuck a BMW badge on a Ford, do you think people would be fooled?
But isn't that the reason that our strikers for the past couple of seasons have had a poor return? The providers no longer see it as their prime role to provide. Maybe again, AVB is happy with that and wants to then spread the goals across the front 4. Makes it hard then to blame Daffy or Soldado or Ade or Kane or whoever is then playing up front for not scoring though.
...back to counterfeit - when I was kid, I am almost certain you could buy club badges and append then to 'stuff'. I had a while long sleeved shirt with such a badge stitched on. I thought I looked the bees knees - especially with my Puma Tottenham boots. Couldn't play football for toffee though. Did make our school 3rd XI once and played Ardingly College.
Memories eh? I'm sure as I get older I make more of them up....