Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
He got more points in his first season than any other Spurs manager in the EPL era, and had the best win %age of any manager. Is that then bad?
Whether you or I like his style and where he got players to play does no affect what he actually did.
Ok, so some think AVB was not that bad and that he should have been given more time. If that is the case how about some of those people actually telling the rest of us a few facts about what AVB actually did right?
Apart from SOMETIMES playing players in their proper position (something which he probably got right by mistake) what else did he do? Did he play fast attractive attacking football? Did he get enough players in the box when we attacked? Did he play a sweeper behind his high defensive line to avoid getting caught on the break? Did he play right footed wingers on the right or left footed wingers on the left? Did he make sensible substitutions at the right time? Did he play the same players regularly in order that they get used to each other and feel confident? Did he accept the blame when things went wrong or did he blame the fans and hint that the club had bought players he didn't want? Did he buy enough cover at left back when everybody was talking about the need to do exactly that? Did he manage to get the players motivated to play for him and the club? Did he relegate Freund as soon as the heat started as a way of deflecting any blame from himself? Did he take some time to see what he had before trying to sell the Club captain and then putting him back in the side? Did he adopt the trendy lone striker formation because we had a striker that was used to playing on his own or because he just thought it was fashionable in Spain?
C'mon, I am dying to know what this tactical genius actually got right. Apart of course from negotiating a very handsome leaving present.
He must be the first manager of a PL team to actually moan about the fact that his club was buying so many highly rated players from around Europe. I didn't hear him saying publicly "please stop buying all of these multi million pound players" when they were coming through the door faster that the post. I DID hear him moan about the fact that we missed out on Willian - strange that.
I did answer it Sfer. I said that I didn't have a crystal ball. Personally I don't think he'd do it. But again that is only my opinion - so for my 1 negative view, there may be 10,000 people who think he may have done it. BUT the only way of actually knowing is to let hm try. AND at the start, as with new players, I think it's only reasonable to allow an amount of time. For a manager, I think two seasons is a minimum (unless the manager makes such a rick that we're sitting 10 points adrift at the bottom of the table, with no way back).
AVB hadn't been a failure with us - he (as pointed out) achieved the highest number of points we had achieved - and had the best win ratio - so irrespective of my likes/dislikes and thoughts on whether he would have turned it around - he MAY have done it - and no one will now know because he's been sacked.
As usual John, you have not answered my question. I agree that there are people you can dislike but respect, Fergie is one for me, but you said you disliked him AND didn't think he would turn it around and my point was - if you didn't like him and didn't think he would make a success of it then why would you give him even more time to make an even bigger mess of it? Its just not a sensible thought process other than for the sake of being "fair". Being "fair" would probably mean losing more games and wasting even more time and money. Sensible.
And 1) Of course any new manager is going to make changes. What, you would prefer we have a new manager that follows exactly what the previous failed manager did? That makes sense. Yes shame about the £100 mill but unless ALL of the players we bought with it fail, which is very unlikely, it has not all been wasted. As for giving AVB time to see if those new players worked out, well, he wasn't playing them all the time was he and even when he did he played them out of position so you would never have known that.
2) Everybody has a different view of what success looks like and we have not achieved what, by most peoples standard, could be regarded as success with any manager. Only Arry did what many think was a good job. My point was that a new manager very often has an initial good run, bringing in new ideas and trying new things - think Di Mateo at Chelsea. I am not over optimistic either but I do know that IMO AVB was never going to work so anybody new has one over on him straight away.
You said with conviction that we WOULD be taking a step back. I asked how you knew that and you have failed to answer with anything other than more empty words. Only time will tell if we have or not unless you have a crystal ball.
BTW I think Levy is making Spurs look a laughing stock with his manager management, £100m to spend and out before Christmas!!! Give 'em a proper chance FFS.
Thrashing? That wasn't a 'thrashing'. What City did to Spurs was a thrashing! As for the CL draw, 'arry' (and Spurs) can only dream of that.
I don't want to post an essay on the pros and cons of AVB..LEVY as most have pointed out many reasonable arguments that can be considered, but without coming up with a definitive answer, so my main thrust of anger is aimed at the players for that performance against Liverpool. Regardless of whether the manager had loss the dressing room, whether the players agreed with his system or team choice, theres no excuse for a total lack of professional pride to give their all and put up a fight even in defeat. Not a single player came out of that game with any credit and as a fan for many years, that hurts more than any defeat. Liverpool fans will now be believing that they are going to win the league based on their dominance on Sunday, but they should be cautious in their excitement as they didn't have any competitive opposition against them and made them look a lot better than they really are, ( apart from Suarez of course ).
Follow The Leader Fashion
Here we go again, the magnets come out to find any guy who speaks broken English because it's the fashion. Get back to reality, Spurs. When Arry stops chuckling he'll have a tear in his eye. An Arry and Hoddle combination could be a gamble but a home grown one. It would be a brave move by Levy but would certainly get you guys talking and smiling.
There are loads of people I don't like, but it doesn't mean that those people aren't any good at what they do.
I don't 'like' Rooney, but I think he's a good footballer. Daffy - I don't like that style of striker - but Daffy is very good at that style.
So my opinion of AVB and his style is neither here nor there on whether he could have got Spurs to 'achieve'. He may have personally bored me to death with his 'style', but I bet if we had got CL and done well by playing that 'style' , other supporters would have been happy. People like Mourinho - not sure about his 'style' either and I'm not overly keen on the way the man comes across - but I wouldn't dispute that he achieves by what and how he does what he does..
No contradiction - just divorcing my dislikes/likes from judging a person on what they've done/are capable of doing.
I say we're taking a step back because of 2 things:
1) I don't think I've ever seen a manager come in and not then change the squad. So we have spent £100m, and that spend may not suit whoever comes in. We won't get another Bale - so having £100m was like a Christmas present that we'll never have again. To then sack the manager before seeing what those players could do seems a bit premature.
2) Because of our track record. Name the 'successful' managers we've had in the 10 (?is it more or less?) that Levy has appointed. So using STAR - our track record doesn't actually fill me with confidence over the next manager. True, the next manager may lead us to the heights, but that hasn't been the case so far.
There are no 100% right or wrong decisions here but you admit you dislike AVB and his style of football and that view is shared by many people, fans, experts and neutrals and presumably as well, the Board. When you employ anybody there is always a risk. I know I have employed people who I thought were worth the risk only to be let down very quickly. No point in keeping them, even though it cost me money, so let them go. Nothing different with Football Managers. You could argue that the risk was bigger with AVB because of his age, lack of experience and what happened at Chelsea but Levy and the Board decided to take that risk and it failed. They have made themselves look silly by failing but ultimately it is not them that pays the price, its the Manager, team and fans. You also, on balance, don't think AVB would have turned it around. Again, nor did many people and particularly the ones that count, so the decision to let him go was made that bit easier. I don't understand how on one hand you don't like him, don't like the way he had our team playing, don't think he would turn it around BUT would still give him more time. More time to make the whole situation worse if your feelings about him are correct. That makes sense!! IMO he lost the players and when that happens there is only one solution. I don't understand the whole Director of Football bit especially when they are in control of who the team buys but it is very convenient for a failing Manager when that is the case as its an ideal excuse. You say in your first post that we will now be taking "another step back". How do you know that? We might of course but there is just as much chance that we take a step forward as often happens when a poor manager goes to be replaced with someone new who the players have respect for, even if that does turn out to be a short lived honeymoon period. As usual John, I find your arguments full of holes, confusing and contradictory almost as if it is done deliberately.
I posted this before, but Yahoo has a smart editor and decided not to publish it.
Although I dislike AVB and his 'style', he still has the best win percentage of virtually all the managers we've had. And irrespective of the two big losses, he has still got us to a reasonable points total - and achieved the highest in the club's history in the previous season. Could he have turned the 2nd half of the season and actually achieved 4th? Not sure, but giving any manager a season and a bit, IMO just isn't enough to see what they can do. Levy made the gamble when he sacked 'arry and appointed AVB - it does not say much for his and the board's decision making to have had so many managers anyway - and to then not stand by the latest decision that he made. He was under no pressure to sack 'arry.
Personally, I don't think AVB would have turned it around - but my crystal ball is no clearer than anyone else's - and to me the man should have at least been given the chance.
Yes it was bloody well right. Yes levy and the Board should also take some blame but it was AVB that picked the team, played players out of position, went with one small striker, played wingers on the wrong wings, made bizarre substitutions, kept switching the players so often they didn't know if they were coming or going, didn't buy support defenders when we had the chance, instead buying more and more midfielders and wingers. He thought 20 off target shots from outside the box was a good statistic. Hardly any crosses (because the wingers were cutting back on their preferred foot) and even if they had crossed, there was hardly anyone in the box anyway. AVB took a team which was looking good, attacking quickly on the break, and turned them into a team that looked completely lost. There is never a good time to replace a manager but the £100 mill has given us a strong squad - it just needs a manager that can make the most of it and AVB was never that. He is too smug, arrogant and full of himself. I have said from the start that he always looked like he knew a secret that nobody else knew about how to play football....well, if he does, he certainly missed a golden opportunity to prove it didn't he.
I was no great believer in him, but as it stands we could have achived 30+ points by mid-way and may, just may have got to 4th. Now, we'll have the new manager restructuring - and what then of £100m spent in the summer?
And if the rumours of Andy Capp or Maddonna or ... are true, I'm not sure where it will leave us anyway.
But should AVB bear all the blame? Surely, given the managers we've gone through in the past few years, questions have got to be asked of the board - as whether AVB was good bad or indifferent, the board have appointed (and sacked) a fair few mediocre managers.
If Baldninni then did make the purchases in the summer (with Levy) - then unless AVB specifically requested those players, surely the wisdom of the purchases also has to be questioned?
Bit of a balls up though - as just when I thought we were looking like a top 4 'consistent' team, we'll be taking another step back.
So, I hate to say it but, at last others are starting to realise AVB does not know what he is doing despite that smug "I know a football secret you other mugs don't" look on his face. And it looked yesterday that the players have realised it too. Beating Anzi on Thursday was not anything to be optimistic about. I was there and we played ok against a side that would be fighting relegation in our Championship. Our team does not look like it knows what it is supposed to be doing, players and styles swapped more times than Labour policies. I notice AVB has already started laying the blame at Baldini's door. And even if AVB had the humility to look for advice, where does he go? Freund????? I said upon AVB's appointment, I didn't like him, he had no right to be feted as a genius based on what he had achieved and that he would upset the team as he did at Chelski. I take no pride in saying I was right - I would much more happily been saying I was wrong if Spurs were where they should be playing attractive football. Some hope!!!!
It could be argued that Arsenal have already played tough games without key players, or at least players that were seen as 'key' before others stepped up to the plate (think Ramsey over Wilshere, or Flamini over Arteta, or Mertesaker over Vermalean).
Nowt wrong with Bendtner or Adebayor apart from their own willingness to apply themselves fully.
Adebayor is capable or ripping teams to shreds and Bendtner played one hell of a part when Arsenal beat Barca and , he left the pitch to a standing ovation last night.
Those two are their own worst enemies IMO.
True Hull are not supposedly too tough an opponent, yet they beat Lpool easily and Arsenal have been better on the road than at home in recent times (due to the w**ker home 'supporters' who slate their own and then wonder why the team is underperforming! The mind boggles).
Erm, I am not sure that is a good example Fab. Hull...at home...Bendtner....2-0?? I was embarrassed to see Adebyor come on for us but I would be cringing if it were Bendtner. As I said, your lot are playing really well but the real test will be against the top teams when you have a couple of injuries to key players. IMO Ar$e don't seem to have another gear that they can shift into when needed. Citeh do and for that reason, I have my money on them to win the PL.
Arsene made 5 changes to the starting line up tonight against Hull (both full backs, two in midfield and Bendtner on) and in all honesty, that is the best I've seen the team play all season.