Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
I blame the fact that Harry tried to play Keane on his own upfront. All he did was run around like a useless donkey, most of the time trying to do Aaron Lennon's job down the wing. What a idiot, if he's there, then everyone has to shift and run into the box. :/
Also, I wouldn't have gone with Jenas, we should have had Palacios or someone who could drop back to help defend because clearly we we're run over at times.
Pavluchenko seems to bag a goal near enough every game so I don't know why he didn't get the first choice pick ahead of Headless chicken Keane. It's time for him to go, it's been good in the past but he's just dragging it out now...
I don't think Keane has been that bad over the time period in question - I thought after Berba left he forged quite a good understanding with Modric. And Keane has always dropped to get the ball. He (in the past) has also acted as more of a provider than Daffy (I think the stats also show that - but hey, what are stats!)
So I was just using the stats to show that even though people think him 'bad' he was still scoring in the timeframe. Much the same as when Bent left - everybody though he was dross as well - but he scores. Still does.
Obviously I can no more prove the point without him playing - and I don't see that occurring. So I take it that I'm in the minority and accept that....I will say no more - honest...;-)!
Sorry John but your arguement is based too much on stats and not enough on common sense. You are only taking into account goals scored and that can be very misleading.
The fact is that Keane has not done "anything" of note when he has been given the chance and on that basis I have to agree with SB. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he has been a negative rather than a positive as when he has had his chance he has wandered off into MF and even further than that leaving us woefully short up front. On Sat both Bale and Lennon were criticised for not crossing well but there was nobody to cross to was there!
Modric had nobody to pass to going forward and IF we needed another MF it would not be Keane would it.
For me it is not just about how many goals Keane has scored in previous seasons or for that matter how many anybody else has scored - it's about all round contribution and that simply has not been good enough.
to be honest im not too fussed if keane wasnt scoring but playing well.
but the fact is
he isnt making good runs
he isnt holding the ball up well
he isnt getting in good positions to score,
he isnt creating chances for others
he isnt making good passes
he isnt taking players on & beating them
he isnt flicking the ball on for others
he isnt a threat to defences
he isnt getting involved in the game
he isnt testing the defence with pace or strength
he isnt linking up well with others.
even if defoe doesnt score he is still making good runs, getting in good positions, testing the defence with his pace, passes the ball & creates chances for others.
he is improved his all round game a lot & become a lot less selfish.
pav for me is too lightweight for this league but he is still more of a threat than keane.
crouch doesnt score a lot but he is something a bit different & links up & holds the ball up well, has a few flick ons & chips in with a few goals. handy to have as 1 of our 4 strikers whether u want to start him or not.
we have VDV & modric who can do what keane does but better.
so we have no need for another small attacking player.
especially 1 who isnt having an impact on games.
i dont think keane is rubbish like some of had said.
but i dont think he is good enough for a CL team.
he is not good enough for us but too good to sit on the bench 99% of the season.
be best for him & us if he went to mid table prem team where he was appreciated more & got more playing time.
i rated him before we got him back from liverpool.
i dont know what it is but he looks to have lost a yard of pace, his link up play & passing has declined & his finishing is a lot poorer.
Whoa - you've just repeated it - you say when he came back he wasn't the same but in the season that he came back he scored 5 in 14 in the league . Am I missing something? He has never been a 1 in 2 (nor have Daffy, Crouch or Pav) - he has always been about a 1 in 2.5 player.
So when he came back 5 in 14 is about 1 in 2.75 - not a massive change.
The following season, 6 in 20 is a bit of a dip, BUT the point was that even though he had a dip, he is far from a player who is crap. Makes you wonder what people here would do with Torres and dare I say it, Heskey...
Crouch has always had a far worse scoring record - but I don't hear the calls saying he's crap.
AND Pav's record last season was better than Daffy's, Crouch's and Keane's - but he's also still frowned on.
So all I'm saying that if you base a striker on his ability to score goals, then 1) You wouldn't play Crouch in front of Daffy, Keane or Pav and you'd probably play Pav rather than anyone.
I'm sorry John, but Keane was given the time ( and the captain's armband) when he came back from the dippers and I think most people would agree that he wasn't the player that left Tottenham for Anfield.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but 'arry and his helpers can't be seeing much in training to give him a start. It's a bit chicken and egg really, if you don't score you won't play and if you don't play then you can't score.
That's the lot of a striker, he has to score when he gets on, or at least come close with one or two efforts, or maybe show some good link up play or good positioning. Fact is, Keane isn't doing any of it and I suspect he, as said already, isn't showing in training either.
I have to say I'm not that impressed with Pav or Crouch's scoring rate either. But Crouch does hold and release the ball much better and it's not his fault he keeps getting the long ball. Pav is a mystery, he ought to be so much more effective than he is but he doesn't know how to put himself about. He is too lightweight and I think he will need to toughen up or he will be gone before too much longer.
Trouble is, midfielders and defenders can be so-so and still get a run of games. Different story for strikers (and goalkeepers).
I apologise if I get a bit arsy over this, but it's not about Keane.
Over the past few years I've seen the comments abound '....he's crap ..... he's a god ....' and most of it 'subjective' based on personal likes and dislikes. Bent was roundly slagged off - but irrespective of whether you like a players style or not, surely people can see beyond the end of their nose?
Bent was never crap, nor Daws nor Bale nor Robinson....If a striker is in the right place at the right time to score, that's what he's paid for, whether it comes off his shin or his bum (or the back of his head). ALL players take dips in form. Teams take dips in form as confidence sags.
Keane may have reached the end of his road, but how can you judge that from 'outside' when he's not playing? 'Arry can, as he sees him in training et al and sees whether he's still got it. But from the 'outside', if he was like Torres and played each week (or Heskey) and didn't score - then I'd be there with the rest (unless he brought something else to the team ;-)!). But that just isn't the case as he hasn't been given the time.
I can't stand Daffy on a personal level - but he's not crap - he'll probably score 15 goals (EPL) a season. BUT I would say that any of our strikers, given the same run, would all be in that bracket. The problem is that at the moment (and towards the end of last season all our strikers aren't scoring 'prolifically' . Crouch scored what - in 3 of the last 20 games last season (but I can see that Crouch does give more than just goals to the team - whether on balance, that is positive or negative, I'm still not sure)? Pav in 5 of the last 16 games. and Daffy in 6 games of the last 22 (24 total, 3 injured). Keane as you say was on loan, but he was scoring - I forget the figures but it was something like 16 in 19 games.
PS as for Keane's goals and 4 against Burnley - that's fine, but if you then start to play that ('the other team were poor') card, then you surely have to discount Daffy's 5 against Wigan also...and then do you discount goals against any bottom 3 team? If you want to just compare EPL goals that's fine and I'd prefer to work on that basis
I just think that any striker coming on for short spells in a game is on a hiding to nothing. Typically they have been brought on as the 'regular' striker has failed to score - so what chance then do they have? They normally are given from circa the 60 minute onwards to do what the main striker hasn't been able to do in twice the time. Not an enviable job eh? I don't think I'd like it if my boss said '...look that bloke over there hasn't processed all the orders - he had 7 hours to get 100 done - we'll give you 3 hours to do the same 100....'. No thanks.
Keane only played up until January in 2009/10 and you say he scored nine, but I make it 8. But they were all against lowly opposition, except everton, and 4 of the 8 were against an abject Burnley. He scored a few for Celtic but that's not quite the same as the EPL, is it.
I believe he was sent to Celtic (as opposed to Coventry) to re-discover his form and because he scored a few, Harry brought himm back hoping he would continue his form.
Admittedly, he hasn't had many chances, but that's probably because he is not showing much in training. His chat with Joe probably hasn't helped him either and I honestly think we should get rid for somebody better.
And I'm not wagon jumping, I have never thought Keane was particularly good, putting his time with Berba to one side. Sure he grafts, but over the last two seasons he has been missing his passes, he has not been good at receiving the ball and keeping it under control and the stats on last season only flatter to deceive as far as I'm concerned.
I still don't see that.
In 2008-9 he played 14 times and scored 5 (not great) and Daffy started 7 (and was used as a sub on 3) and scored 4 (better).
So Keane was scoring every 3 games (251 mins) games and Daffy every 2 (175 mins).
In 2009-10 Keane started 18 and was used as a sub in seven, scoring 9. Daffy started 39 and was used as a sub in 4, scoring 24.
Keane was scoring effectively better than 1 in 1.75 (every 160 mins) and Daffy 1 in every 1.5 (every 133 mins). So again Daffy was better - I agree - but this isn't showing that Keane is crap.
As for Crouch, he started 29 and was used as sub on 17 and scored 13 - effectively 1 in (every 229 mins).
This season is difficulty to judge - but:
Daffy had started 4 and scored 1 - so 1 in 4 (every 285 mins)
Keane has started 2 and been used as sub in 8, scoring 1 (so 1 in 3.5) (every 335 mins)
Crouch has started 11, been used as sub in 3 and scored 4 (so 1 in 2.5) (every 228 mins)
So - surely, the figures just don't agree with what your saying - how can you judge on 2 starts this season? And if you judge on last season on last season 1 in less than 2 is pretty good.
Again, I'm not saying he's brilliant. Far from it - but it seems like the emperors clothes - as soon as someone says '...he's crap.....' loads just jump on the bandwagon. I've seen it with Daws, Robinson, Bentley (recall when he stood in for Lennon for a protracted period how much better he started playing? - how quickly it's all forgotten), Bale....who's next? Ekotto and Corluka are being villanised.
So is it all an illusion? - as I think we have a pretty good squad - but if you take out everyone that's 'crap' or should be sold, you'd barely have enough left to pick a match day squad. Not too good eh? I base that on the comments about:
Corluka, Keane, Pav, Bentley, Ekotto, Hutton, Bassong, Palacios, Jenas
The problem isn't Keane. It isn't Daffy. It isn't Crouch and it isn't Pav. It's all or none of them. Our strikers haven't been scoring this season - so that's either they're crap and missing loads of chances or the chances aren't being created. Keane gets slammed for a 60 minute appearance - that's fine, but the issue appears to be the supply. I would have said that the issue is in that final 3rd and creating the chances for the strikers. I've seen the odd chance for each of the strikers when each of them has played (obviously Crouch has had more that the others due to pitch time) , but not really more than that.
I'm not sure why, but I would guess that VdV affects the balance a bit and stops 'arry playing the 442 - so we end up with a lone striker. That in itself is fine, but 1) it takes time to adapt to that way of playing and 2) we then need more goals across midfield, not just VdV/Bale for it to work.
I also personally think it affects the way Modric plays and I don't as yet see VdV as being the same style of creator (he's fine at creating and taking chances for himself, but I don't see him as a provider) .
what i cannot fathom is why play with 2 of the best widemen in the country and a lone small striker up front??. surely crouch or pav would have given vidic and ferdinand a better workout. the number of times our crosses were cut out, with ease, by the manu defence was ridiculous, anything in the air was mopped up by vidic and ferdinand and, whilst much has been made of the 2nd goal, the 1st goal was, in the main, down to lack of height in our own defence, this was exactly the point 'arry made on espn when i/v'd just before the game.
- 1 Reply to Kevin
i too was suprised he went with keane as the alone foward.
no point bale & lennon even crossing it as keanes hardly going to beat vidic & rio to the ball especially when he is so deep anyway.
should have started crouch or pav really.
shawcross is a good shout for a new CB. another young english player in the team would be good. id like to offer some squad players in a deal as im sure we have a few players pullis would like. cahill is another 1 we could go for.
i still like gomes. he makes the odd rash crazy decision like against inter & utd. but for the other 99% of the season he is really good.
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