Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
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SAF has been "relatively" successful? Crumbs, you are a hard one to please. As I said, SAF's honeymoon was 25 years ago and things were very different then. Presumably AVB knew the score as far as transfers go when he took the job. If he accepted that Levy took control of that he has to live with it. And yes, not only do I interview everybody I work with I choose who gets hired (and who gets fired) and I pay them out of my pocket.
I only used the Chavs as a comparison when you said that sacking a manager quickly showed a small club mentality. Yes, if you spend the level of money that the Chavs and Citeh have done the expectation is a lot higher to win something but that does not mean we cannot expect some sort of success does it? If thats the case every team other than Manure, Citeh and the Chavs may as well give up and go and start another league. Its not like we have not spent any money is it.
"With the players we have at our disposal and the the amount Levy has spent, do you think we should be doing better? We are 1 point behind where we were this time last season. When we hadn't had the upheaval and our key players were all fit! " As I have said, its not about the points or where we are, its about how we are playing and the way AVB is going about it. We also had more than our fair share of upheaval last year Joe didn't we. Arry's court case, Arry dallying with the England job.
I don't expect after 5 months to be ahead of manure, Citeh or teh Chavs, and I don't "expect" to be 6th necessarily but I do expect us to be playing attractive football and creating goal scoring opportunities regardless of injuries. Its a very long time since anyone accused me of being naive!!
One thing is for sure, I am not expecting Levy to take my advice. I would not expect him to take a few hundred supporters disquiet as advice or even a few thousand. If it becomes the majority however, then yes I would expect him to take some notice after all its the fans that make a club isn't it?
There is no evidence to suggest that had the Chavs stuck by AVB he would hav had the same success as Di Matteo. Terry and Lampard are still there and would not have been but more importantly his negative style of play was not working. He lost the team and consequently he lost the Board. And I can feel a de ja vue moment coming.
So 5th or 6th and you will be ok with AVB having at least another year? So would I - surprised? You shouldn't be if you have understood where I am coming from. I would be happy with 5th or 6th (I would be even happier with 4th of course) but my concern and fear is that under AVB that is very unlikely and actually it will be much worse than 5th or 6th.
We all want to unearth anouther gem - a couple of our existing players playing to or above their potential would be good enough to me. Do Pool and Ar$e pay more than us?
Anyway, we could go round and round on this, it is unlikely that AVB will go any time soon so we will get the chance to see if you are right won't we. I sincerely hope you are.
It seems that Levy decides who comes in and who leaves, as a manager of a team I wouldn't be happy with someone else building a team for me. I don't know if AVB was aware of Levys intetions to run the transfers, my point is that it must be tough to manage someone else's signings. It seems that AVB hasn't been involved with recruiting our most recent signings.
I think both SAF and Moyes have been relatively successful, SAF has had masses of money to spend and has achieved what is expected of him, with the vast and deep resources he's had at his disposal. Moyes has IMO done exceptionally well with the limited resources he's had. I know people who believe SAF should have done better! I'm not sure how, but those people are out there. Thats hard to please!
I agree we can expect some sort of success, IMO anywhere between 4-6th would be a successful season this year. 7th would be tolerable, but slightly disappointing. If we achieved 4th but played like stoke, how would you feel about AVB then?
Agreed Harry put us through some fairly unease times, the difference being that out team was very settled and seemed to pick itself (much to my annoyance at times). Points wise I think we all have to be relatively content with where we are, I agree some of the performances have been below par, I partly expect that as we due to the amount of changes and injuries, but I do want that to improve, the sooner the better.
I don't mean you necessarily are Naive, judging by the way you construct your arguments I don't think you are, IMO if anyone expected us to play well consistently after all that has changed and the number of people who are not available I don't think they are being realistic, too much has changed for us not to be affected.
On a positive note, imagine how good we could be when we have a full selection and the team has gelled properly? We played superbly in the Manure game, albeit only fleetingly, but positive signs were there!
One thing is for sure, Levy won't stand on ceremony or have any kind of sentiment, if he wants AVB gone he'll do it. I just wonder how many times Levy can remove a manager, pay them off and keep his job. If I were Joe Lewis I may be looking at the one constant in all the failed management stories.
No there is no evidence to suggest AVB would have turned it round at the Chavs, but he wasn't afforded the time and he clearly rubbed one or two of the old boys up the wrong way. Had he had Hazard, Oscar, his approcah may have been very different. Maybe because he had been involved with the club at a much more minor level in the past the players struggled to respect him and he struggled with their ego's, maybe!
We are currently 5th despite some pretty poor/average performances, I'm expecting us to improve as the team become more acustom to each other and to AVB's ways and as some important players return.
Liverpool and the Goons pay their squad players much more than we do, although we probably pay a similar amount to our 'best' players, the goons seem to pay more of them more money, if that makes sense. Hence the reason why they cannot move on their deadwood.
Indeed this is becoming a written merri-go-round, still nice to have a good debate- ta.
- 2 Replies to Joe
The problem that Levy, and all boards/chairmen have, is deciding when it is the right time to pull the plug on a manager. That means to me that you have to have some way of measuring progress against targets.
Loads of assumptions, but I would also guess that Levy brought AVB in to move the club on - so that would seem to imply that 4th+ and Europe was the eventual target, as I just can't see Levy thinking that winning a domestic cup was 'progress' (as the return and knock on return for the cups is minimal). At this point I would assume that a minimum position in the league was specified for half season and full season and that the Europa cup was also targeted.
If we dip out of the Europa and also then also slide in the league by Christmas to an unacceptable position (ie without a realistic chance of Europe next season), I think Mr Levy will be hard pressed to see any progress and will be forced to act.
Irrespective of whether I think a manager should be given a season or two seasons, I'm not sure the commercial concerns would agree nowadays. It's about marketability, profile and profit. Europe raises the profile, CL raises the profit, a few positions in the league is worth more than a cup win.
As for transfer control, if press reports are to be believed, we seem to be still in the market for a director of football type person (although we dipped out on Axminstercarpetstain from Barca) - so, even if AVB does stay, it looks as though his role was only ever meant to be manager/coach (I'm never sure what the difference is there) - IF (big IF) that is the case, then I would assume that the player in/out bit was already something AVB knew he would have limited control over when he joined.
I'm not sure he would have been aware of the scope of the squad change though. When you look at players out/in over summer, there was a marked effect on the 'depth' of the squad. I think that is what we're noticing now. I know a few here didn't agree on the quality of some of the players we had/have on our books, BUT, we did have players who could fill 'holes' and provide options - we lost:
Corluka,King, Bassong, Nelsen, Krancjar, Pienaar, Modric, VdV, Saha, Dos Santos (and strangely ended up keeping and playing in pre season: Jenas, Bentley)
Lloris, Vertigo, Dempsey, Dembele and Glyph (the player formerly known as Sig)
So we're 9 games away from half season, and a game or two away from staying in/leaving the Europa. I think that's the Levy tipping point. Maybe I've misjudged the man, and he has more patience.
Sorry, had a bad day yesterday.
I simply cannot believe that AVB, or any other serious (as opposed to some interim lightweight) manager would take the position if he knew he would not have control of signings especially knowing that most Chairmen have never kicked a ball in their lives. If that is the case then AVB knew the score. Why must it be tough taking over a team of existing experienced PL players some of whom are very highly regarded? Surely that happens every time a new manager is appointed at every club and there are plenty of examples of new managers having a very quick and successful 1st year.
I am not saying that SAF and Moyes have not been successful - what I am saying is that SAF was appointed in a different era and if appointed now probably would noy get 5 years to win something. Moyes' "success" has been to keep Everton in the PL on limited (but not insignifcant) resources. Success of a sort yes. Obviously the board at Everton are happy with that and Moyes is a good manager and respected but what if Sheik Abu Bin Needs Emptying took over? Would they be happy with just staying in the PL then and would Moyes know how to spend millions on the right players? Who knows but attitudes and expectations would change things.
As I said, I wouldn't mind finishing anywhere in the top half if we were playing attractive attacking football and the players were giving 100% every game. Of course I would not be happy playing like stoke and even getting 4th. By asking that you seem to be missing my point. I want Spurs to be playing attractive attacking football (and winning of course!!) but my whole point is everything in the past and now about AVB points to that not being likely.
Another point I am trying to make is that the below par performances IMO are more about the formation and tactics deployed by AVB than injuries and the infamous "change" scenario. If I could see us playing the way Spurs are famous for, creating chances but having some bad luck or not outscoring the oposition, I would be happy to give AVB time to get that right - but they aren't are they?
I am not as confident as you are about how well we will be playing once injuries are over and the team has "gelled" simply because even with a fully fit squad, based on the evidence so far, AVB will continue to go with tiny Defoe up front on his own and he will still play negative football and make some very bizarre substitions. Thank you for agreeing that there is no evidence that given more time at the Chavs AVB would have been a success. The fact is that the Board there saw some things they did not like, presumably thought these were too worrying to ignore (despite the huge money spent and the ignomy of being labelled hasty or reactionary) and got rid. Stupid or brave??
So your assertion that Pool and Ar$e pay better than us and therefore can attract better players has now been watered down to some of the squad players. I don't know how much our squad players are paid compared to pool's or Arse's but I would guess there is not a lot in it and anyway, if Pool and Ar$e are indeed paying their squad players stupid money to play for the reserves, surely Spurs are to be applauded for being more sensible.
Of course this is all academic and only time wil tell if AVB is a good manager or not. Interesting the different sides of the argument though and at the end of the day we all want the best for Spurs. I hope you are right and AVB turns into a better looking version than Old Big Red Nose.