Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
Whenever the subject of how much time you should give a failing manager to turn it around, get his system working etc, comes up people almost always point at Old Big Red Nose or David Moyes.
My problem with that is they are the exception as opposed to the rule. Plus they have both had very different amounts of success. OBRN has of course won everything going over a very long period of time. Could anybody else have done what he has done? Who knows but unlikely. Moyes has in contrast won nothing. His claim to fame is that he has kept Everton in the PL with very little money. Two very different meanings of success.
How long is "enough time" and if you give the manager enough time and it fails where does that leave your beloved team?
What - 5 years, 10, 2 ?? OK, so you give him 2 years and say to yourselves "no matter what happens we give this guy 2 years" and at the end of the 2 years you are in the Championship, mid table, the ground is nearly empty and all your best players have gone with no chance of replacing them. Do you stick with the manager on the basis that he needs more time then?
There is too much at stake for everybody, the owners, the players and the fans, to stick by someone that you "hope" will turn it around. Its a tough old world and whilst you might not expect a new manager on several million pounds a year (sarcasm!) to win his first 6 or even 10 games, you would certainly expect him to have the crowd, the management and most importantly, the players on his side.
Joe, in another post, said that getting rid of a manager too quickly showed a small club mentality. I don't agree with that. Are Chelsea a small club? Have they got rid of several managers after relatively very little time? Yes, are they CL Champions who will no doubt be in the top 4 (or 3) again this year - yes.
There are two differences between the AVB at Chelsea and the AVB now. First, he has been told to smile more when doing TV interviews and second, well there is no second from what I can see.
He has adopted the same negative team tactics, he has made some very strange sub decisions and subsequently that has put some of the neutrals in the crowd against him, he "appears" to have lost the support of some of the senior players (already), he looks like insisting on playing 4-5-1 with tiny Defoe up front on his own and even though he smiles more - he still looks like a smug git.
Yes of course we will win some games this year and I do not expect us to be in the relegation scrap but for a team that most neutrals and "experts" think should be fighting for 4th is that good enough? And what about next year whilst this "transistiion period" that is somewhere in AVB's mind is going on, where does that leave us? watching boring negative games and seeing our best players leave - that would be my guess.
I dearly hope I am wrong but all the facts (as I see them of course) do not point that way.
So, and this is only my opinion of course, AVB is not going to be the saviour we all crave, not now and not next year. And on that basis, regardless of the flack we would get from those who think everyone deserves "more time", I would start looking for someone with all the qualities that a top manager has right now. That "flack" would be long forgotten if we were to actually win something or even get into the top 4.
Evening fellow Yids.(hope i'm still allowed to say this)
Enjoyed reading the post on this thread as usual but sadly no one added any humour.
With reference to AVB,i pesonally think he needs a bit more time to see what he can achieve with a first choice 11,ie-all key players are fully fit and able to produce the fantastic football we have enjoyed at the LANE over the last 3 or 4 years and then maybe we will see what he's really made of.
Fortunately we're still in a good position at the moment and not playing nowhere near our best,which has often been mentioned.
Another thing in his favour is that he has the JAN window in his favour and it will be interesting to see if he can bring in the like's of Muthinio and Willian,plus others as this would surely be a feather in his cap to proving that he has objective and ambition to take us to our full potential.(i would love his job)
So for me,this top 4 thing is about MONEY,and from what i read and digest from this forum i'm convinced that a few of you guys and girls could keep our beloved SPURS in the top 4 forever LOL.
Anyway , lets hope we can stuff the arse tomorrow(somehow that don't sound right)and continue in our quest for CL and even more.
...........atb .......JEFFALL.........SPURS ..FOREVER.
Wot Sfer? Replying by proxy? Clever.
I was not trying to wind anyone up. You simply made a comment:
'...One season of success with Porto does not a PL top 4 manager make!! ...'
The term 'top 4 team' to me means a team that regularly achieves top 4 status - ie it is a record of past achievement, and a potential predictor of future.
The teams that fall into that then are Utd, Chavs, Woolwich, Pool and now Citeh.
We started to get there, but I would suggest we don't quite fit the epithet - Yet.
As for a manager - if you use the same criteria, then that limits very few managers to be judged in that category (given that Utd and Woolwich have been stable, and Citeh have only achieved it with one manager) - only Pool and the Chavs having multiple managers.
I would say that 'arry NEARLY got there. If he'd done it this year, then I would personally have classed him as a 'top 4 manager'. But then any manager outside of the existing 4 (5) clubs managerial history can't be top 4 managers, if you use that criteria. Oddly, I would not yet class Mancini or Di Matteo as top 4 managers - they are managers of top 4 clubs, but not as yet top 4 managers.
That then raised the question in my mind as to how can you identify a manager who has top 4 'potential'? Obviously it's not easy, or else every club would have one ('I told 'eeem we already 'ave one...' as Monty Python would say). It is also then obviously linked to the finances and ambition of the club itself. So can you have a 'top 4 manager', without having a club that already has potential for top 4?
IE even with 'arry and what he achieved over the three seasons, could he have done the same ten seasons back?
Is AVB 'a top 4 manager'. No. Not by the above definition - he can't be. Does he have the potential. based on current, and limited record? IMO no. Could that change by Christmas? Yes. It could start this weekend. It may not. The problem, is that 'top 4 [manager|club]' is a hindsight thing.
If it was easy to predict, the Chavs would have had one manager over the years as would Pool and Citeh. It seems more like a lottery to me. 'Arry totally surprised me. AVB may.
"top 4" has become a generally accepted term in football Joe. Not saying I like it but it is used widely. How to you identify a top 4 manager? I don't know, probably the same way you identify a top 4 team.
As usual that nit picking idiot (IMO obviously) has as usual taken something said in general, analysed it to death and then responded in order just to wind me up. To prove my point, in the other thread he has STATED (as if a fact)that others (presumably me and SB) have said before, beacuse we like him and he doesn't, that when Defoe scores we say he can play as a lone striker and when he doesn't we say he can't. What a load of bollox!!! Certainly I have never said that, I don't believe SB has and I can't recall anybody else saying such. If anybody has said that Defoe can play as a lone striker then they need their head testing. AVB is pretty much the only one who seems to beleive that.
The guy I am trying my hardest to ignore so as not to bore others on here is a complete twatt.
Pretty mich anything and everything said on here is one persons take on whatever it is. I am quite happy to agree if I agree with it and debate it if not and I have always tried to be as sensible as possible about how I do that BUT there is just no way on this green earth that you can do that with this idiot. Everything is twisted, misinterpreted and scrutinised so much the attempt an any sensible debate is completely ruined. He tries to beat people into submission with long winded (excuse this one!) posts which are impossible to follow and most are hypocritical and full of contradictions. I almost think he might be just one big wind up but unfortunately that is probably wishful thinking.
Back to AVB. It seems to me that those of us that would get rid can give some pretty good reasons why we think that should happen (listed over and over in other threads) whilst those that don't can only come up with "he needs more time" but can't give any good reasons why other than it would be rude or hasty.
Is your responding to me to tell me that you've been ignoring me and that you won't respond a bit like a page in a book that has:
'This page intentionally left blank'
printed on it?
Sfer, Ignore away. I raised a general point. I won't feel offended if you deign not to respond (or reply to tell me that you definitely won't respond)
So after that: The question is:
What does then make a top 4 manager, and how can you spot one?
I have ignored your posts John and I have never sought them or look forward to them as you could start an argument in a phone box on your own. This will obviously not stop you posting your hypocritical, muddled and nonsensical thoughts on anything I say but I thought I should just point out that I will not respond.
So is being a top 4 manager about which team you manage or the manager himself? Or both? Which carries the most 'weight'?
Could say, Martinez get Wigan to the top 4? Could Alardyce with West Ham? Could 'arry have with Portsmouth?
How on earth do you know who is a 'top 4 manager' before they become a top 4 manager?
IMHO it isn't so much about the manager, as the resources the club has. Fine AVB *kept* Porto where they had been accustomed to being, so he didn't make a complete hash of it in Portugal.
But until he had a chance with a club who had the resource in the EPL to achieve and sustain 4th, then how can you tell?
It's odd how the clubs are called the big four - given that those clubs have (apart from two) had multiple managers.
and now Citeh
and maybe us
had or now have the resource to sustain a top 4 challenge.
So realistically, until a manager gets to manage one of those clubs, how do you know if they're top 4 material?
Levy decided that 'arry wasn't the way, and decided on AVB - is he any worse a choice than say Moyes or O'Neill or Benitez or..... I would say that you can't tell. No way to predict.
If you look back (I think I started a thread) that showed how the EPL has become dominated by certain clubs over the past 20 years or so. Before that, certain clubs had better runs - true, but the top of the table positions seemed to be more conducive to change season on season. The change to domination seemed to be coincident with the EPL and CL - the obvious inference is that the money, and hence better players, is likely to be the key - not so much the manager. (AVB could be seen as a Portuguese equivalent case in point there).
According to this article all the old fans suddenly decided to not attend and to give their tickets en masse to a load of new fans that happened to be waiting outside. They then watched the game and all boo'd. How ridiculous is that theory?
This guy actually says "given more time AVB is sure to succeed". If ever anybody was so obviously one sided this has to be it. No doubts, just plain old fact - in his mind. He can be no more sure AVB will succeed than I am that he will fail so to write this as fact is again, ridiculous.
He states, yes STATES, that VDV was one of our two best players. Not for me and not for many others he wasn't - by a very long way. I didn't, at the time or since, see a mass of angry and sad fans wailing at the gates when it was revealed he had gone. Unyet, according to him that is one of the reasons we are not playing so well.
Apparently, according to this joker, AVB was not supported by Levy in the transfer market. How the hell does he know that? Levy gets much praise for keeping THFC financially safe but this guy seems to be saying that we should let the manager buy whoever he likes regardless of the cost and how much the player wants in wages. If every team adopted that philosophy the PL would be in financial meltdown in weeks.
There is not one independent, unbiased criticism of AVB or his tactics in this article. Its almost as if it was writen by AVB's Mum.
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