• Liverpool Message Board

  • Miguel Miguel Nov 29, 2011 21:57 Flag

    Ten heroes in red

    Time Carrol went out on loan I fear. Did virtually nothing positive for ninety minutes whilst surrounded by players who gave everything to secure another famous victory. Bellamy, Kelly, Lucas, Coates, Enrique, Maxi, absolutely outstanding, the rest excellent but, I´ve said it before and will say it again, Carroll is as much a liability as an asset at the moment. I don´t blame him for missing the penalty but I do question his fitness level, positioning, ball control and needless fouling. He is a long way short of where he needs to be.

    No matter, a superb result for LFC and one to take great heart from as we get back to the league. Well done the boys.

    A worry about the Lucas injury. Hope it´s not ligament and long term. He was my man of the match but there were plenty other candidates to choose from.

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    • Hi Dave

      I agree with most of that Dave (I too was one who suggested patience with Lucas) ...

      It's a fair point about not reading too much into rumours. AC clearly has potential and he gets my full support whilst he's giving 100% for the club I support.

      I also think its reasonable when you say "we can only judge by what we actually see ourselves". My problem though Dave is when I do judge by this criteria I see a guy who looks like he's still playing pre-season. He doesn't look sharp or full of energy - in short he doesn't look fit.

      That's the worry. He's got talent and potential for that talent to improve. The one thing you do expect in your younger players is fitness. If he doesn't have it at this stage of his career it's a fair question to wonder why do you not think?

    • I have a feeling Roman would not be too impressed playing Europa League and sitting around fourth or fifth in the Prem. So the next three matches look rather important.

      I'm not sure the Terry saga is doing any damage on the field. Every time there is another bad headline about him he seems to jump a bit higher at a corner and scores a goal for us. I really can't imagine it's going to go to court. First, it's not at all clear to me what the charge is. Second, it would seem to most likely depend on there being multiple witnesses from QPR who are willing to go and testify against him. I think it's unlikely that football people would do that. Generally, what happens on the football field stays within football. Start opening the football pitch to police investigation and where will it stop? There are much worse things that happen on the pitch than a bit of abuse, racial or otherwise.


      Robert

    • Robert, agree with you on Luiz he's one heck of a footballer but maybe missing a footballers brain sometimes, but maybe that comes with age and experience. I'm also not sure he's best used as a center back who almost by requirement have to be disciplined players. When we played you in the league I think the commentator (I think it was Gary Neville of all people) had a great line. Paraphrasing he said he's a very gifted player but you wonder sometimes if he's being controlled by a 10 year old on his play station console.

      As for the next few weeks, they are critical for you but I'd not say the season is over if things don't go to plan. If you do fall out of the CL I've got to guess that is the end for your manager, but I've got a feeling the league has a long way to run. Some of the talk of the inevitability of City reminds me a bit of the talk about Chelsea last year in the first 3rd of the season, and look how that turned out.

      City also have a couple critical games against you and Arsenal coming up, and depending on results the top of the table could either look like a big gap between 1st and the rest, or extremely tight between the top 6 or 7. City domestically have had it all there way but not so in Europe and that plus the fact we stopped them cold suggests they do have a soft underbelly that can be exposed. But Man U are in a funk like you (maybe not as bad as you) while despite slow starts both Arsenal and Spurs have yet to face real purple patches but I'm sure they will.

      Bottom line as the old saying goes the league is a marathon not a sprint so don't write the books quite yet. Come the New Year the top 6 or 7 could look much as it does today, or we could have a complete reshuffle, so I'm not going to count your lot out quite yet, although the news on Terry's file being passed to CPS surely has not helped your cause.

    • David Luiz has more natural skill than the rest of the team put together, I think. Maybe Anelka excluded. He's great to watch because you just don't know what's going to happen next. Obviously there is an issue with his discipline, both with his impatience to get the ball and his temperament. The question is whether, as he gets used to the Prem and matures, he can control that without losing the spontaneity of the rest of his play.

      I have no idea whether you can have players like Luiz doing their thing and still expect to win trophies like the Prem. Chelsea so far this season have been like Arsenal in recent seasons, so attack minded that they concede goals too easily on the counter-attack. I have been critical of Arsenal for playing that way and, frankly, I am starting to get fed up of Chelsea losing matches like that. You may be right that we need to develop some more and then we'll do it so well we'll be on another level. I'm tempted to think if it ain't broke don't fix it. On the whole I'd rather win matches boringly than lose matches and provide other fans with entertainment. And if our play wasn't entertaining enough how did we win the league two years ago scoring a record number of goals?

      We have a big week and a half coming up. Poor results in the next two league games and the wrong result against Vallencia on Tuesday and our season is practically over already.


      Robert

    • You'll know I'm not a completely uncritical observer of the Chelsea faithful. I am disappointed when they boo and jeer (i) players being stretchered off, (ii) the roll-call of visiting players when those players are playing for a lower division team in a cup, (iii) the innocent victims of Chelsea,um, mistakes (thinking Wayne Bridge and Anton Ferdinand).

      It's one thing to ritually boo the roll-call of Liverpool or United players when the teams are announced, and I do that with as much pleasure as the next thug. But we should keep it in proportion. Sadly in the place that some fans should have a manners department there is a space that gets filled with alcohol.


      Robert

    • Carroll may come good but he needs to find his scoring boots and fast..

      I can see Kenny buying another striker in January. Probably someone who does know where the net is and can score..

      Carroll is for the future..

    • Bit harsh I think. With Bellamy spending a lot of time wide on the left, Carroll spent a lot of time on his own up front. He pressed, provided an outlet and did a decent job holding up the ball at times.

      Did he have a world class outing, no, but in my mind contributed to the side and therefore helped get the win.

      Another thing of note is in the past I've thought a fair criticism of Carroll is that he's not versatile enough compared with our other striking options such as Suarez, Kuyt, or Bellamy who can play wide, or come deep, and interchange with each other, while Carroll often looks like a static centre forward. However a couple times I noticed Henderson pressing forward and noticed it was Carroll who dropped back. I also saw him pull wide right to pick up the ball, and help create overlaps for Kelly to work.

      Yes it was a terrible penalty, and the lad should not be given a dead ball in a while (strikers rarely make good penalty takers imo), but think that is what is clouding some peoples minds.

      • 1 Reply to dsteer_lfc_68
      • Dave, after I cooled down a bit (I was tearing my hair out with AC most of last night) I did say on another thread that I hate picking on players, him included. I´ll agree therefore when you say that he is a player in the making I hear all you say about his efforts last night but, compared to say Bellamy, he was pretty poor, let´s be honest.

        The press here described him as "ineffectual" which describes in one word his overall contribution. They were full of praise for the rest of the team, so it´s not just my opinion.

        I realise you like to take a measured view and, in the case of Lucas, you have been proved right. I hope the potential you( and the club) see in Carroll is rapidly developed because on what we´ve seen so far, he has a long way to go. I would like to see in order of importance

        1. more effort, running rather than jogging, greater fitness
        2. better ball control
        3. better positioning
        4. less silly fouling

        which, to be fair, were areas some of which Lucas had failings in a couple of seasons back and look at him now! One of the most energetic and effective players in the league with highly impressive tackle and passing stats. One could never acuse him however of lack of effort which, in my book, is Carroll´s biggest area for improvement right now - as recognised by the club you will recall.

    • The problem for me with Carroll is his mobility compared to the rest of the lads. If he's not in the box on the end of a cross he's pretty useless.........we really need an out and out mobile striker like Gomez of Bayern. He'd cost a few quid but he'd be worth it.

      • 1 Reply to Loki
      • We share the same view Loki. I know all at LFC are "building for the future" but, and I am sure we will see this come January, we can achieve a lot now with the addition of an experienced - and hence older - striker.

        Remember when we got Gary McAllister towards the end of his career? Great signing and played a real part in the team at the time. Likewise, Craig Bellamy - 32 and man of the match last night. I wouldn´t rule out anyone over the age of 28 or 29 who fits the bill for us "short term".

        Carroll may come good and clearly the club feel he will. I hope it happens for his and everyone´s sake but, at present, I don´t see it on the immediate horizon. Meantime therefore, we shouldn´t be using him in a key role simply to give him match practice, even in a competition like the Carling Cup where we have an excellent chance of getting some much needed silverware.

    • I thought Carroll was having a private competition with Torres to see who was the bigger waste of money. I had it down as a no-score draw at the end.

      Then there was Carroll and Luiz who were both doing their best to get Luiz sent off. How they didn't manage it between them I don't know. Luiz's comedy dive for his yellow after ten minutes should ensure he can get into pantomime if the Chelsea hierarchy get fed up with him. And then he spent the rest of the match taunting the ref. How Carroll managed not to get a yellow as well is beyond me.

      It's getting depressingly repetitive but well done Liverpool. I didn't think you were very good but we were shocking. No energy, no ideas, no shots on goal at all in the first half. To be fair we worked your keeper more than you worked ours in the second but we didn't work him enough and our defence for your two goals was abysmal.

      Still, it's only the Carling Cup. We didn't particularly need two matches against City or United in January anyway. We'll be busy then buying some new players. I see Maxi's doing his best to be scouted by us.

      I'm sure you didn't see it on any TV feed but at half-time some Liverpool supporters strung up a large banner in the Shed End which read:

      Christmas is coming
      Lampard's getting fat
      Torres is a ladyboy
      & Meireles is a twat

      That and Carroll missing his penalty were the two highlights of the evening for me. Oh, and getting home from Lillie Road in 25 minutes. Where was all the traffic?


      Robert

      • 3 Replies to Robert M
      • That was my first visit to Stamford Bridge and quite a fond memory :) Andy Carroll is taking a fair bit of stick although missing a penalty is asking for it really! He did win it to be fair and should have had another one awarded to him so I will score him higher then Torres who seemed scared to get a touch on the ball at all!

        Henderson was very good but for me, Bellamy and Enrique looked like they were playing in a different planet to everyone else, nobody could get near them, the move for the 1st goal was very tidy.

        For a Chelsea fan it must have been horrific viewing and you could sense the fear every time they lost the ball high up the pitch. Theres one thing attacking a team but the line they played was nothing short of silly. For the majority of the second half the 2 centre backs were sat in the Liverpool half on either side of the centre circles arc and the full backs were playing as wingers, nobody moves off the ball and they looked very toothless.

        The highlight of my evening was a disabled Liverpool fan pulling her wheelchair up in the middle of Fulham station to sing at the Chelsea fans then rolling backwards and down the stairs, everyone went silent then she started singing again from a heap on the floor.

      • What has me scratching my head Robert when I think about the Chelsea back line is how can it be so good yet so bad. Your characterization of Luiz maybe fair in terms of idiocy he showed in risking an early bath, but on the other hand he had a number of spot on tackles that saved some real developing chances from Bellamy and Carroll, and for most of the match think he did well playing Carroll tight so he never got much time on the ball.

        Same can be said for Alex in terms of his individual defensive abilities and maybe the brain fart side as well, or did someone forget to tell him he was going to play football last night and not volleyball!

        I was also impressed with your young left back (forgot his name) who looked good both defensively and going forward, and should be putting Cashly under pressure very soon. Unlucky in getting a booking, for what was someone else’s foul and in fact could have been a straight red.

        And considering Boswinger is no slouch either, how come as a unit they make such horrendous mistakes? Bellamy was given acres of space to set up the goal, and in fact Henderson's pass was telegraphed by your back line as if they'd set up a big neon sign saying "please pass through this gaping hole". Same for the Kelly goal. Yes great delivery from Bellamy, but all night your center backs had been eating up most of what came in through the air for Carroll, yet they allowed a ball float by them to the back post!

      • Haha! the Maxi transfer is as good as done, just a matter of formalities. To be fair I didn't think Torres did to badly, if Liverpool had defended anything like Chelsea he would have put a couple in I'm sure. And on Carrol I wish he had got a goal tonight, he really needs a boost. I noticed for the Maxi goal he was making no attempt to get into the box though, maybe for the best.

    • a striker like carroll needs playing time to build confidence...... tell jose, miguel, would you rather he have a run out for 90 min in the carling cup or the prem or an european fixture?

      don't doubt the king..... obrigado friend!!

      • 2 Replies to Jose Pombal
      • Wondered what had become of you Jose and nice to have you back. You are a bit behind on the Carroll debate though since many on here have been making the point you did since August. I said back then that I didn´t rate Carroll and, any amount of run outs are unlikely to alter his performance unless and until he takes playing for Liverpool as seriously as he appears to take his social life - quaffing pints included.

        I hate to criticise players but we are a team and he is not contributing enough, even when given the chance like last night. One would have expected to see a show of determination, skill, effort and a desire to impress surely? I saw none of that but maybe I missed it or expect too much at the moment? I could give more but I will cite one example. What did he look like effortwise at 22 compared to Bellamy at 32? No comparison I´d say and that is not something time and run outs will improve. The problems with Carroll run much deeper I suspect and I hope Kenny and the backroom staff can get them sorted for his sake, his teamates and we supporters.

      • Jose Pombal good too see ya back bud