Liverpool Message Board
I've seen a few suggest on here recently that the owners should plunge another 100m into rebuilding the squad this summer to rejuvenate our chances.
If I was Henry and came on here reading that, I'd just be shaking my head.
Spending astronomical amounts of money is no guarantee of success. I think that's been proven by a number of clubs.
What we need to do is take a long hard look at the money we've already spent, and ask serious questions about the decision making process at our club.
We seem incapable of finding cheap, value for money jewels. No doubt they are out there, but they're all at other clubs. Even when posters on here do a post-mortem of our new signings, the only ones who rate a mention as remotely good we have shelled out for (except Bellamy - whose appearances have been way to scarce).
I don't know who our talent spotters are, who identifies our targets. But THEY need be hauled over the coals by our owners I think.
We can do far better than we have, with far less money than the silly amounts being suggested on here. We need to fix the problem at the source and stop the waste.
And at the same time, think realistically about where we are in terms of getting realistic targets. We are now 4 points from 15th in the league FFS, now level with Fulham and Norwich. Make no mistake, a bottom half finish in the league is a distinct possibility for us this year, and even if the owners did sanction another spending spree in the summer, who could we realistically attract with it as a bottom half club?
Our league form IS everything. More than anything, it dictates our potential transfer business. Cup runs do not. That's what disappoints me most going into the summer.....
- 2 Replies to LFC_Armchair_Supporter
100 million is a lot of money. Unless you are a sheik or a Russian billionaire, you can buy much more than 2 players with it, you can actually buy 2 modest Premier League teams. Blackburn cost Venkys less than 50 million quid (actually 23 million according to Wikipedia). Even Liverpool with all its history and heritage cost FSG a mere 300 million (an equivalency of 6 good players according to Armchair).
I have to agree with Abu, if I was John Henry there is no way I would entrust another 100 million to the same people who blew away the first 100 million. The first thing to do is cut your and losses and find someone capable of fixing the problem. Granted that success will not be guaranteed under the new incumbent but with due dilligence in the recruiting process you at least give yourselves a chance.
Like Abu rightly says, throwing money at a problem does not necessarily solve it, Man City and Real are the best examples. I hate using the Mancs as an example for anything but they are running away with the title with a much inferior team to Mancini's. The likes of Wellbeck, John Evans and Rafael would not even make the City bench but with the corrrect coaching they are in a title winning team. I am in no way implying that Jose Mourinho is an inferior manager but in Pep Guardiola he has clearly met someone better than him. With the amount of money Real have spent, they should beat anyone and everyone. Rafa in his time with us operated on a shoe string budget but that did not stop him from master-minding away victories at the likes of European powerhouses Barca, Real and Inter Milan. In his 6 years at the helm we bought probably less than 5 players for over 10 million and only one over 20 million, but we consistently finished in the top 4 throughout. Suddenly we spend over 100 million and we are trailing Everton who hardly spent a dime, now why would the owners risk their money again? What if the same people take the new 100 million and buy Lee Cattermole, Darren Bent, Scott Sinclair and the Mclean kid at Sunderland?
A couple issues for me on this one:
First off I think the 100M is a bit of false starting point. It was the gross spend last summer, but net or new money put in by the owners was somewhere in the region of 30-40M. Still a significant amount, but based on revenue the club could generate. The remainder was raised from player sales.
For this coming summer I'm expecting a similar investment by the owner, or maybe a slight bit more as we can anticipate extra revenue from Europa league, extra commercial revenue, and the fact last summer also saved us a ton of money in terms of wage bill which has helped the bottom line.
I'm not also sure about the statement about not being able to find cheap good players. Yes we've spent big on some players and it could be argued spent well over the odds. However I'm not sure we over spent for Enrique, Coates, and most definitely not on Bellamy as he was on a free. I'd also argue, while some have not been impressed with him, we got what we paid for with Adam, a decent squad player who was far from expensive.
The ones we have spent big on have been young and British; Carroll and Henderson. Carroll obviously is the lightening rod because of the high price tag. Personally I think it’s still too early to say a 22 year old on a long term contract cannot return value, but understand others have a different opinion. But even if he does not work out, does one poor buy write off the entire transfer policy?
Henderson is the other, and he was not cheap. But has he really been a flop? Again like Carroll I don't think you can write off a young (21) player on a long term contract, and just have to point out Lucas as a perfect example of why not. But I'd also say put it into context. For similar money (okay slightly less) Utd bought Jones last year, and the year before Smalling. In Henderson's first year do we think he's done any worse than either of them in their first seasons? Like Lucas Henderson should be judged over his first 2 or 3 seasons, and so far I've seen nothing to suggest he won't work out.
But the one transfer I have been disappointed in is Downing. He like Adam is a mature player, who you'd expect after a settling in period, would help improve the squad. But unlike Adam he was not cheap. Personally I think he's done better as the season has progressed, so think he's worth giving another season before final judgment, but so far he has underwhelmed.
Lastly I reject that the league finish will dictate what targets we can bring in. First off we maybe level with Fulham and Norwich (with a game in hand I might add) but why assume that is where we will end the season. Yes we could stay 8th, we could slip further, or we could move up. But I'd also argue players are motivated by where they think a club is going, not where it is. Yes the Manchester clubs, and Chelsea (even if they don't finish top 4) have an advantage in recruitment, but as a player would you rather go to Arsenal who have not won anything in years and have a reputation for not investing or go to us who maybe currently off the pace but have shown real ambition in recruiting players in order to progress, and have proven we are serious about actually putting silverware in the cabinet?
- 1 Reply to dsteer_lfc_68
Hi Dsteer, Abu,
Firstly I think Commolli has been hauled over the coals in the last month by FSG at a meeting in Boston. Kenny and Damien now have a report to compile, and I don't think they will find it easy to do so whilst mitigating their failures. Barring an FA Cup win, and strong lge finish, the word in the US is that John Henry is primed to make a change. This lot are ruthless, mark my words, and they like young coaches.
Secondly, they won't pour in £100m in the summer. I have heard reliably, that £25m is the meximum net investment, and anything further will be self generating, with Reina being the jewel in the crown to be sold. I fully expect the likes of Carroll, Spearing, Cole, Aurelio, Wilson, Maxi, Adam, Aquilani, Darby and Pacheco all to be on the for sale list. Kuyt has also bee mooted, but I think he'll see out his contract.
We DO have an excellent youth team, and reserve side, with some real gems coming through. Sterling, Coady, Wisdom and Suso may all see game time next season. Henderson is NOT a flop, he's been let down by others around him, and has bags of potential. He will be a top top player one day, maybe not with us, but let him go, and he will develop elsewhere to make us think back to now and regret it. Coates is young, with bags of ability. It is not all doom and gloom.
I think you are wrong Steer, about who we can attract. The top talent will not come to us, and the rumours are even going round about us being up for sale again. We look like we are going backwards, and I wouldn't trust Commolli and Dalglish with their judgement to sign the right players, why would a player trust their career to them? How can they sell the club, given the dross they have served up most of the season. That is why an FA Cup WIN is so important. Anything less, and Kenny is gone in my opinion (I think he might be and should be anyway), because he is not a draw for top players. He's an old fans favourite, who has taken a job that long term is beyond him. That's what I think, and I wear no.7 every Sunday for luck, mostly because he and Keegan made that our iconic number. What must the neutrals think, and players who might have previously considered us as a viable top 4 team.
The answer is good coaching (kenny isn't a coach), canny transfers (which Commolli has failed at) and intensive player development with tactical awareness and a commitment to a style of play. We need a coach for the long term, a younger man with vision, discipline, and drive. Only then will we see the improvement we are seeking.
Abu_president I agree with 99.9% of what you've said but have to pint out that you've slightly contradicted yourself by saying that we'll not be able to attract players with a costly price tag. I think as Liverpool fas we are all concerned about the future of our club but what we seem to forget is that everyone at liverpool, players, coaches and everyone down to even the tea lady all have these concerns.
We are in a rebuilding process at Liverpool and I am amazed by how many of us as fans aren't aware of that and do not realise that this will take time and patience on our part.Yes mistakes will be made and fingers will be pointed at those players, the manager and even the owners.
What upsets me is that there appears to be too much panicking going on because of the outside pressure of people who have no concern about our club but that of wanting us to fail and humiliate us at every possible opportunity they have to do so or at any little whiff of us faltering.
I've supported this club for nearly 50 years and even though times have changed I have always love they way that we as a club go about things with grace and privacy, that is rear these days as everyone seems to want to come in and tell you how to run your club and how much money you should be spending. I still believe in this club and know deep down in my heart that we will get it right and even though we haven't had a good season, we are still there moving in the right way and this mark my words will be proven in the next couple of seasons. There is a great old saying that we all seem to forget: you have to take a step back to take 2 forward. Many might say we are taking more than 2 steps back but I still firmly believe that Kenny is the right person for the job given that he's from the old school of thinking and that he wants and is trying to get Liverpool back to it's core values which was taught to him by the great man himself. For that reason alone I truly think that we should not waver from our path and continue to focus on becoming a solid team and club again. I've received a lot of criticism on here for my comment but we're all entitled to our believes and at the same time we should not have them changed by people who doesn't have your best interest at heart. This club was built to be successful, it will always be successful perhaps not at the moment but it will return to becoming successful. We as Liverpool fans just need t remember that and not allow the constant pressure of media, the haters and all the rest pressure us into think different, just need to have a little bit more faith.
- 1 Reply to merlin
merlin...good post mate have to agree with u sentiments ...the idea of Kenny doing his best to return the club to its core values is the way I see it too...cant see as any true supporter of our club could disagree with such a sentiment. Problem is there are quite a few snide wind up merchants on this board masquerading as :supporters: and u are quite right when u say we shouldnt let :the haters: pressure us in any way...the degree of pessimism evident in some posts on this board from certain posters for me identifies them for the wind up artists they are . Why ? Because never in my 55 yrs support of this club have I encountered such incessant pessimism from a real fan ...we will always first seek the positives before leveling any criticism... but not these clowns.
I think here in this same thread dsteer...Dave...gave the perfect riposte to some of these types and their attempts to dismay true supporters when he said... :The only way to satisfy your expectations would have been to send the removal vans to the Nou Camp and move Barca here !:
Damian Commoli out, quality signings in, like that Vargas bloke from Fiorentina, add in a player who gives the team some badly needed "urgency" speed down the wings, etc, a sergio aguero like striker, and then maybe, just maybe liverpool might be able to get back into the top 4...
I was working on an exhibition actually, but read a lot about FSG.
Do you deny the existence of an Ian Ayre e-mail, where he questions the motives of FSG and their ability to revive LFC?
Do you deny that FSG did not consider Kenny Dalglish for even their shortlist, and that it was the opinions of the supporting public who influenced their decision to appoint him?
I did NOT say that a focus on LFC cost the baseball team the play offs. I said that FSG have been criticised by fans of the Boston Red Sox who HAVE said that.
All in all what I have posted is speculation based on what I've read, much of which is based on their record in Boston.
At the end of the day I have predicted based on what I know that Kenny will be asked to step down in the summer, FA Cup or no FA Cup. Come July/August you can mock me for being wrong.
armchair...:Ive a feeling D Commoli will remain at LFC while FSG are owners: ...quote from armchair ...yesterday ! YOU HAVE TO LAUGH EH LADS? Surely u couldnt make this bufoon up ? Hes like something out of a cartoon strip...seriously he has to be a wind up artist ?
Only 2 players have worked out and thats Enrique & Suarez.. although Suarez would truly shine with a proper striker in front of him.. someone to feed balls too..
We had that player already and we got rid!!
Kenny needs to look in the mirror for sure, and he must need to assess the relationship with Commolli, and see if that is working. At the end of the day I don't know what Damien does. He is in lots of pictures with players when they sign contracts, and that seems to be about it. I've never watched another game and seen him scouting, and I watch a lot of foreign games. I've seen Pardew in the crowd for example at French games, and Alex Fergusons brother at La Liga games.
At the end of the day it is the signings that haven't worked, bar Enrique, not a single one of them. Who is that down to? Kenny is taking most of the flak, but should he be?
I also think there is an issue with the coaching. Kenny doesn't coach, he is an old fashioned manager. Clarke and Keen do the coaching. The defence on the whole has been very organised all season....and we don't need to strengthen any area of it in my opinion for next year (unless Robinson isn't quite ready in which case we will need a 2nd string left back). Clarke did all of Chelsea's defensive coaching under Mourinho, and is a great coach. So no surprise there.
However, going forward, there doesn't seem to be a plan. How should we play to Carroll, are we going to get the ball wide, for crosses (it has seemed not) or play with narrow wide men, who cut in.......the right side has been a massive problem, largely because henderson has played there, and johnson has struggled occasionally with injuries or had to play left back too often....in central midfield there doesn't seem to be anyone who bombs on and supports...and the passing is too slow and formulaic to break teams diown especially when at home. All in all our creative attacking play has been awful. Is that down to Keen? Who coaches that?
Individually the players obviously have to take a look at themselves too, but we all know that isn't how it works....they have to be made accountable. In my opinion this is where Kenny is weak. Cross Fergie and you are dead.....cross Kenny, and he takes it on the chin. For example the Suarez handshake....never have I seen a manager of a club put in such a weak position, with his authority flouted, made to look a fool, embarassed. I would have gone mental if an employee of mine had done something similar, and had them half out the door fearing for their job. Football is different, but Kenny just seems to defend his players for everything, but get betrayed in return.
Even the attitude of the players on the bench against Blackburn. The players were laughing and joking with each other during the game, like a country club atmosphere. This during our poorest run of form since 1954, and I was watching the game, on tenterhooks, screaming at the box, because of some of the poor play. Maybe it is me, but they seem to have it too easy under Kenny. But there are all sorts of other factors too as I've mentioned.
That's actually quite amazing to make the trip all the way over here to the states and seek out such private and personal information from a group that only shares what's necessary on their sports ventures/business...
Henry's involvement and ownership in LFC caused the Red Sox to miss the playoffs for the first time in years? OMG, dear oh dear, I've heard it all..
You mean the Red Sox didn't miss last year's playoffs because the manager, Terry Francona lost complete control of the dressing room, with star players calling their own shots and behaving like morons? So the well documented, and admittedly true stories you can go and look up on the internet of Red Sox players not happy with the manager, the situation, and genuinely not caring about the season, sitting down in the dressing room eating fried chicken and drinking beers DURING games had nothing to do with them?
I don't even know why I'm bothering with this, I'm just so astounded..
I'm flying out of JFK Airport in New York tomorrow, just to seek out private information from Gerrard's doctor's and physios just to see what the real issue was, and when I return back home, I'll also have a leaked email from the Queen of England documenting a conspiracy theory on giving Steven the wrong injections into his groin to derail his/Liverpool's season..
As it turns out also, Henry is really business partners with H&G, and I learned this by making a special trip over to Texas and speaking with their personal lawyers, and in a slipped email it shows that all revenues are going to H&G, and when Henry is completed with draining this club into relegation, it will be sold to Venky's..
Jason...I lived in US for 17yrs and have to say that on reading Sideshows post not much rang true for me either...most of the stuff was far too personal sounding for US media sports reporting ?
Most sports stuff there whether it be NBA NFL or Baseball restricts itself to onfield activity or at worst personal scandals involving this player or that with performance enhancing or recreational drug use NOT boardroom opinions and power struggles.
I was surprised to think that there might have been such extensive reporting of Henrys personal views on the performance of Kenny or Commoli ? Dont really want to call Sideshow a liar but would suggest hes been doing FAR too much :reading between the lines: and as such has posted that reading between the lines channeled in the direction of his own bias towards terminating Kennys contract.
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