Liverpool Message Board
This one is for our resident Chelsea fan Robert!
Pathetic behaviour from a section of the Chelsea support should hot up the atmosphere in the Cup final, and in the coming league match.
hobitez...Chelski have always been known for having more than their fair share of imbeciles that follow them but as u say their behavior is going to make for two VERY hot atmospheres in our remaing clashes with them. Seem to recall all the problems at Millwall some seasons ago now when a section of their support started to give it plenty with the Hillsborough insults. Lets hope their crass behavior has put the real fire in our lads bellies eh come CUP FINAL DAY 05 MAY.
As is common when I write stuff on this board that the locals don’t entirely agree with, the thread has split into a number of people commenting on my blurb. Rather than tackle them all individually, at various levels of temper on both sides, I will try in this post to explain why my comments have come out as they have. (You may not like it.)
First, thank you to Hobitez and Sideshow for your kind remarks.
The stuff I wrote about Hillsborough and my criticism of the Chelsea fans the other day was sincere, and will no doubt be echoed in other threads in due course. And I sincerely hope that both Chelsea fans and Liverpool fans refrain from using this as an excuse to have a go at each other in the cup final, or at Anfield. Both sets of fans have a responsibility not to wind things up.
I raised Heysel and this needs explaining as it is behind quite a lot of what I have written. So at the risk of upsetting you further I will explain that.
I am angry with LFC over Heysel. (Don’t even think of saying it was 27 years ago: that’s only slightly longer than Hillsborough.) I am not specifically holding an on-going grudge about the specific events, although when I review it in detail and think about my reactions on the night I get just as emotional as I do when thinking of the events at Hillsborough. No, I am angry that LFC doesn’t treat the Heysel victims with anything like the same reverence or concern as it does the Hillsborough victims.
Every Heysel victim is just as important a tragedy as every Hillsborough victim. LFC has rightly taken on a self-imposed responsibility to care for the Hillsborough victims’ families, through remembrance and campaigning in various forms. I believe LFC should have taken on a self-imposed responsibility for the Heysel victims too. Why? Because, to put it bluntly, but accurately: 39 Juventus fans died because of bad actions by Liverpool supporters. (Compare that with the thread title.)
We are rightly told that “some things are bigger than football”. Yes, Hillsborough was and that may well justify you not playing on April 15th. So was Heysel. Many fans died at both and they are both part of your history. One you (the LFC family) have no culpability for. The other, some. Yet you want to remember the former and not the latter.
Dave says: As for Hysel, I was not there yesterday, but from the coverage on LFCTV I saw it was not mentioned. I'm not sure why it should be as they are two separate and unrelated events. We don't mark the anniversary of Hysel in the same way as Hillsbrough, but why should we, it did not effect the club in the same way.
I’m angry because it affected me in the same way. I saw innocent football fans dying in two stadium disasters on what should have been festivals and happy occasions. I think if some things are bigger than football, then it damn well should affect LFC in the same way, because of the involvement of its fans. I think LFC has as much responsibility to remembrance of the Juventus victims in some way as it does to remembrance of the Hillsborough victims. I’m not asking you go and have services in Italy, I’m not even asking you to boycott 29th May, although that would show an agreeable consistency, but I’m asking for something better than the appearance of wanting to wash it under the carpet.
Loki: Heysel was on 29th May. Why would we even mention it on 15th April?
Because here is your opportunity to show that you mean it when you say some things are bigger than football. Your Hillsborough services should have a minute’s silence for the Juventus fans, or some other recognition. At the very least. Show that you want to remember Heysel for the human tragedy in the same way as you want to remember Hillsborough. Have some remembrance for what your fans caused, not just for what was caused to your fans.
I’ll get me coat.
- 2 Replies to Robert M
Now now Robert, this is a good discussion.
You are right about Heysel also being beyond football. I suppose we could have a service on 29th May, why would any of us be against it? But as someone has already said, we do have links with Juventus over this, and I think we do send a delegation over to Turin every year, but beyond that I don't know why we don't have services here too.
Somebody has already said that Hillsborough had a greater effect on LFC than Heysel, and that is true. On Remembrance Sunday, do the British remember the German dead? I don't think they do. That's the best way I can explain it I suppose, with that example.
With regards to the actions of Liverpool fans at Heysel, and yes they rushed the Italians, but the finger of blame should also be pointed at UEFA. The club wrote to UEFA months before the final, saying that the stadium was not fit to host the final, and as is usual in these cases (we saw it again at the Athens Olympic Stadium in 2007), the powers that be decided that they would ignore our concerns. Furthermore, they decided to put us next to Juventus' fans with only chicken wire separating them. This concern was also ignored. I don't know whether you are aware, but every time we play in Italy, particularly Roma and Napoli, (and by 'we' I mean British fans) there is always trouble from the Italians. More or less anywhere else, there's no real trouble. They started throwing stones in to our pen and spitting, what is the human reaction to that stuff? Turn the other cheek like Christians tell us to. Unrealistic not to expect a reaction. So fans decided to fight back, so yes, Liverpool fans rushed the Italians. As they fell back, one of the walls crumbled in that unsuitable sh*thole causing the deaths of those poor people.
I'm not excusing our fans, but not everything is as it seems with Heysel. Maybe the only fact that matters is that Liverpool fans' actions resulted in the wall to fall. Cause and effect. But if you are going to go down that route, then you have to say 'If UEFA listened to us in the first place, this couldn't have happened' - how far back do you go for blame?
I would be against remembering Heysel at any Hillsborough memorial. In fact I would be outraged if that happened. April 15 is for Hillsborough victims only in my opinion, as they are separate incidents. As I've already said, I would not be against a another service.
Returning to your many points about our selfishness, you are essentially saying that we should miss our mothers' funeral because it's your birthday party, otherwise we're selfish.
Anyway, this subject is becoming truly tedious to me. I shan't comment on anything other than football coz I've said everything I have to say on the subject.
Robert M, I don't think you know enough about Heysel to comment actually. At least it sounds that way. I have been there and paid my respects, and it was a tragedy in the same way Hillsborough was.
However it has a lot of similarities to Hillsborough, in that the circumstances were very much outside of the control of the fans inside the stadium and the club itself. This was NOT a case or organised hooliganism of the sort seen in the vicinity of many a Chelsea game. This was pure fear and panic, the roots of which were sown in a game a year earlier. In a stadium not up to hosting the game, and set up for a disaster. The club requested the game be moved beforehand, and had grave concerns over the policing and segregation of the fans (there was barely any).
Perhaps you need to read a bit more about it, because the blame for Heysel lies squarely with UEFA and the belgian authorities/policing. Or perhaps you believe the Thatcher myth.
I'm not saying our fans were blameless, but it was not what you think it was, and you should not say so as freely as you have. Shame on you.
I started watching the TV coverage at three and a half minutes in and so didn't know anything about this until afterwards. If you want my thoughts, here they are:
Whenever I have read of the events at Hillsborough, and when I think of my reactions as it unfolded on the day, I feel very emotional. I would hope most football fans old enough to remember, or intelligent enough to read, should feel the same, whatever club they support.
I have no criticism of LFC in its handling of the aftermath of Hillsborough twenty something years ago and have great praise in particular for how Dalglish handled it and himself at that time. I am aware it took a personal toll on him and I have sympathy for that. These things and more I have said on this forum before.
If I had been at Wembley I would have been embarrassed by any Chelsea fans making any noise, especially any disrespectful noise, during a one minute silence. My view with all these many silences we are asked to conduct these days is that even if you don't have any feeling for them you should at least shut up out of respect for others who do.
I note that when I have been to SB and there has been a silence at the start of the game it has always been fully observed by both home and away supporters.
So why not this one and now? My guess is that it relates to the annoyance of feeling bounced into playing our cup semi-final on the Sunday due apparently to LFC's refusal to play then. My view, as expressed on the United board in some depth recently, is that I think the FA should have handled things differently. I also think that LFC, in the form of your illustrious manager, came over as rather arrogant with his stated view, which I paraphrase, "we ain't playing Sunday and if you don't like it you can f*** off".
There is sometimes a suspicion that LFC and its supporters wants to play Hillsborough two ways. Sometimes we are told it's an LFC tragedy - it's our fans - and sometimes the rest of us are told we have to behave a certain way in "respect for the 96". In fact, it's happening here. Chelsea fans were expected to behave a certain way in respect even though the semi-final clubs were not involved in Hillsborough and with the background of LFC selfishly demanding not to play on the Sunday. So I think there is a valid question of whether Liverpool people think this is a private matter or a national matter. In the former case, don't tell us how to behave. In the latter case, don't be intransigent over fixtures. If you (Liverpool fans) genuinely want respect for the 96 and between all football fans then you Liverpool fans should not be wanting to "hot up the atmosphere in the cup final" over it. Do you want it to be "us and them" or not?
I don't excuse any Chelsea fans making a noise. They should grow up. And I support CFC's strong line against them, similar to the strong line against fan(s) singing songs about Anton Ferdinand. But I do sometimes think that Liverpool people should get off their high horses about Hillsborough. Especially when we never hear a peep from them about Heysel.
Well, you asked.
- 1 Reply to Robert M
Robert, I don't understand your point.
Every year, we all go to Anfield on the 15th to remember what happened. All the players attend (and remember Steven Gerrard lost a cousin that day). Are you saying that we should have foregone this tradition and played yesterday so Chelsea could have another day to prepare for the Barca game? If so, I think you're completely missing the point. Hillsborough to us is beyond football, and so it should be. No football match is ever going to make us play on that date, and why should we?
Maybe one solution was for us to play this Saturday coming so you could have that extra day, I personally wouldn't have minded that, but that is the FA's decision, so you should be perhaps pointing the finger at them, not us! We don't want our cake and eat it.
There are 2 separate issues here. The FA have never been forthcoming in helping EPL teams in the CL.
Telling us we're essentially selfish not to play on that date is insensitive in the extreme. I'm surprised at you.
Where was I whining?
Why should you consider others? You don't have to, you can be as inconsiderate as you like. But if you don't give a shit about what others think and if you want special dispensation to play or not play on days you like or don't like irrespective of the effect on others then don't get all huffy when you are called selfish.
So in your view it's offensive and disrespectful to bring up any criticism of LFC in relation to Hillsborough or Heysel, and so it shouldn't be done? Well, sorry, but I disagree and I reserve the same right as everyone else has to comment as I see fit. I try to keep things on topic. This was, to me at least, although you have failed to follow the logic.
If you can't help but read what I say and you want to be offended by it, well sorry. But if I believe in what I say and if I think it is fair comment, and I do in this, then the risk of you being offended may not be enough to stop me posting. Try to take less offence, or rise above it. You may notice I ignore a great deal of offensive remarks directed straight at me, including on this thread. It's the best way.
As I did with Sideshow, I'd like you to read this:
It says pretty much what I was trying to say, but more eloquently. Perhaps you will find it more acceptable than me.
My my Robert we are getting tetchy. I suggest you get laid once in a while. I don't believe I kicked up a fuss over this. Those idiots who booed spoke eloquently enough themselves about their mentality. In fact I haven't commented until our little tete-a-tete here.
Humility? Are we supposed to get on our knees asking that the other clubs sign a document saying they give us their permission to have 15th April off in perpetuity?
We refuse to play on 15th April. Yes we are thinking of ourselves in this matter before other clubs. How could it be any other way? It's called 'standing for your principles.' I don't care (And I doubt the club hiearchy do either) whether the rest of the football world is with us or not in this matter. We neither seek, desire nor need the approval of anyone but our own fans.
Heysel was on 29th May. Why would we even mention it on 15th April?
I have no problem with the idea that some things are bigger than football. I remember Dalglish saying the very same thing the evening of Hillsborough, and approving. But I think if you want to carry the rest of the football world with you a little more humility in the PR would have been good. And I must say, as gently as I am able to, I would like to see a little more recognition of Heysel from LFC.
I genuinely don't know the answer to this. Was Heysel mentioned at all in the Hillsborough commemoration the other day?
Robert, what is your beef with this if not the preparation time for Barcelona?
LFC's so-called selfishness has nothing to do with fans booing during the minutes silence - and you know it!
I don't mind Chelsea being p*ssed off with having to play 3 days before their most important match of the season, I understand that. What I don't understand is sickos. Full stop. I don't believe there is a connection between the two.
If you think we, in any way are wrong, then 2 wrongs don't make a right. I don't believe for one minute the fans who did not honour the minute's silence were thinking were of inconvenience as you put it. They were just being mindless aberrations, all of them!
I tell you what is inconvenient, having to travel 200 miles with our wonderful national transport system when Old Trafford is 30 miles away. Generally speaking, you lot hop on to a tube and your at Wembley drinking beer in 30 minutes.
Ultimately, like I said before, I am pretty indifferent to the opinion of fans of other clubs who seem to be on our boards more than their own boards. I would be amazed if any of our fans here care that your club had to play on Sunday because of our refusal to do so. What I would say on that is that we might have been pencilled in to play on the Saturday anyway.
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