• Liverpool Message Board

  • Loki Loki Sep 12, 2012 19:05 Flag

    Armchair- hang your head in shame

    Now the report is out, perhaps now you can see that the sh t you said about your own people was disgraceful.

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    • Bob
      its ok, i and everyone else can see you backtracked severley after making a fool out of yourself, with cherry-picked comments, rather than as i say, offering a balanced view, but then thats you isnt.

      you must live a very sheltered insecure life, if im the one that can make you laugh so such........maybe that why you spend so much time here, seeking laughs from people you dont know, how sad, but im glad ive helped you.........yet again.

    • I'm not sure what you think I've taken on board from you. Perhaps you were reading my earlier comments through a filter.

      I'm very happy with my levels of pomposity and sarcasm, thank you. The idea of taking advice from you on posting style is the funniest thing I have heard this morning.


      Robert

    • Bob
      i'm glad you have taken my message on board.

      Perhaps a more balanced approach is needed from you in future, just like you have done here, but always re-read your comments before you hit ''post message''

      it may go some way to eliminating that pompous sarcastic undercurrent that you normally try and secretivley apply.

      good lad.

    • It's only complex because you make it complex. That's how the guilty ones have got away with it for so long.

    • "I'd suggest those who ferried ... did a lot more good than harm."

      I am absolutely sure they did and I did not mean to imply otherwise. See my answer to Sean.


      Robert

    • It is my understanding that, in a literal sense, up to 41 people may have survived past 3:15 and that any of these may have survived further given the best care.

      I would say it is very important, especially to the families, that this is not misinterpreted. It is very possible, I understand, that many of those 41 were in fact dead at 3:15, and that the chances of many of the others were negligible, even with the best care. Sadly, in the chaos, the best care wasn't available.

      3:15 is of course an arbitrary time. Make it 3:10 and more people were alive, presumably, and more people could have survived with betteer care. Make it 3:20 and fewer people alive presumably.

      Why did I note that people may have inadvertently done the wrong thing? For no sinister reason. I have no criticism of any of those who tried to help and acted in good faith. I trust any of us would have tried to do the same. I think I was merely trying to illustrate that the situation was chaotic and the victims who had suffered severe crushing and were unconscious had little chance of survival even despite the best attempts of everyone there.

      Yes, many people were involved in helping save lives and I hope those people recognise the part they played and it helps them get over the experience. Although film of people being helped on the pitch is not normally shown there has been plenty of film shown of the crowd in the adjacent and upper sections trying to pull people out of the two pens. It is awful to watch. The thing I find most difficult about it that all those people knew that people were being crushed but couldn't do enough about it. It was horrific.


      Robert

    • Like I said, negligence was my word working from memory, whether it’s used directly in the Taylor report I can't remember. Thinking about it, it may not as it can have legal ramifications.

      However there is a difference between being negligent, which I equate to being responsible for the cock up, and being criminally negligent meaning you are culpable and can be held legally accountable for the cock up. I'm pretty sure Taylor did not use the second, but I'm inferring the former.

      In this case, based on what we know, I don't know if the Police or other emergency services can be held criminally accountable for the actions on the day. The report would suggest they may have broken the law in the covering up, or misleading the public about their actions, but as the saying in politics goes its often it’s the discovery of the cover up that will get you, not the deed itself. However if they felt they had done nothing wrong, one would question why try to cover it up in the first place.

      Just one other point, you may be correct that some victims may not have been helped by supporters who laid them down on their backs rather than the proper recovery position. However like Sean I'd suggest those who ferried victims on advertising hoardings, or pulled screaming fans out of the pen most likely did a lot more good than harm.

      But additionally there is a big difference between a private individual trying to help a dying victim and not getting everything right, compared to a professional whose job it is to know what to do. I'm not talking about the paramedics who I'm sure did their level best on the day, but those whose job was to organize and provide safety matters in order to prevent a disaster, and as events unfolded manage things to mitigate the disaster. It seems pretty clear they got it wrong on both counts, and they are and should be held, responsible, but instead we were told yesterday in the clearest manner possible, they decided to pass the blame, and run and hide.

    • Hi Sean,
      I like your choice of words that up to 41 people may have survived, since it is not known exactly how many would have survived. Also survived is the key word since many/all of those 'still alive' were unconscious after being crushed. They may have survived but the amount of time the brain can survive without oxygen is very short, thus many of those who may have survived would have had severe brain damage.
      It is a very complex situation, and not as simple as "41 could have been saved" like has been posted on here

      Best
      Ed

    • Bob
      would you agree or disagree, that it is VERY important, especially to the families, but also the previously brainwashed public, to say, out of this INDEPENDANT report, that upto 41 people, MAY have survived after the 3:15pm deadline.

      or do you think its dramatising the whole situation.?

      you also say that those that helped, may have done the wrong thing, possibly by recovery position, yet you fail to mention those that helped, also saved lives..............by helping.
      why?

      PS...still supporting JT are we..??

    • Taylor certainly pointed the finger at the police, although the detail of the report is pretty damning about other agencies too. But there's a huge difference between cockup and negligence. My recollection is that Taylor doesn't use the word negligence or, to me, imply it. However, Taylor may well be superceded by the new report.

      I had intended not to comment before I read the new report. Another good intention down the drain.


      Robert

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