• Liverpool Message Board

  • Roy F Roy F Sep 14, 2012 05:32 Flag

    Perspective????

    Firstly, i hope the Top Brass Police who are responsible for the cover up get the punishment they deserve.................But i would just like to say that the bigger picture needs to be looked at and everyone involved needs to look at any blame ..... even if it is a small small part.

    The Police are in the dock (or soon to be) over this...

    Saying all that. I am convinced that the 'Real' Police on the ground that day, and ALL Emergency Service's did the very best they could..................The reports smearing them as basically useless, saying up to 50% could have been saved from death is a disgrace to the Men and Women who did their bloody best under circumstances nobody ever expects to face.

    And I am sorry if this goes against the grain..............But EVERYTHING needs to be taken into account for this to be a true reflection on the days events. Everything from traffic and train problems that caused a mass of people to arrive late and converge at the same end, to the fact thousands of fans turned up without tickets........it is plainly obvious (but maybe hard to admit and easier to brush to one side, as it makes one appear uncaring) that fans without tickets added to the crush at the closed gates..... and i am in no way implying that these fans were malicous but IMO, it didn't help the decisions made by Police on the ground at the time.

    But yes, the cover up should not go unpunished and i like you see little prospect of 'real' punishment being meated out.

    I also fail to see just why lies were needed. IMO the Police opened those gates for the right reasons and were trying to save lives and injuries................the reality was very different but they were not to know that and had many without tickets not been there, the actions of Police on the ground may have been different, but we will never know..................And the top brass should have simply admitted mistakes but quantified them as doing what looked right at the time, now it looks malicious and given those hard working Police who would clearly be affected from the scenes they witnessed that day, and undeserved bad name!

    Also, I understand that there were issues with the grounds safety certificate??...........If so, is that the fault of the Police on the ground.

    So in short................Blame the Police but the right ones!

    Anyone without a ticket should also feel that, in the very least, it didn't help.

    Had i been there without a ticket, i would now and at the time be feeling self guilt....even though it was just passion for their team that took them there ticketless.

    Please, i know old wounds that have not heeled have been re-opened but my views are meant with respect

    ROY

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    • Roy, the words blameless, exonerated and no culpability don't mean anything to you do they?

      • 2 Replies to Loki
      • Not sure what you mean Loki?

        I have never said those emergency workers on the ground were blameless. It appears they made mistakes and the coordination for the response to the tragedy were not up to standard....................My belief is they did their best and lessons should have been learned with an open honest enquiry at the time...not a cover up.

        The top brass sat down and had a deliberate meeting with the agenda of deflecting blame etc etc.

        Unless you are saying these people are blameless?..............Sorry but your post is too vague!

      • Not sure what you mean Loki?

        I have never said those emergency workers on the ground were blameless. It appears they made mistakes and the coordination for the response to the tragedy were not up to standard....................My belief is they did their best and lessons should have been learned with an open honest enquiry at the time...not a cover up.

        The top brass sat down and had a deliberate meeting with the agenda of deflecting blame etc etc.

        Unless you are saying these people are blameless?..............Sorry but your post is too vague!

    • I know and Justice would be nice but it can't bring back the dead...............but no justice can make the living feel worse.

      I'm all for going for the top Police who lied not the guy on the ground. What should (or should have) happen with any Emergency Service's failing is to learn from any mistakes not a witch hunt...............Any mistakes were genuine.

      But the top brass didn't make a mistake, it was a carefully thought out plan to deflect blame and it hurt alot of people.............But what charges?? Conspiracy To Pevert The Course Of Justice?...............Or What????

    • I'm going to partially agree and partially disagree with you.

      On the issue of not blaming all policemen or other emergency services at the scene I agree. I'm sure individuals did the best they could. However from what I've read so far from the report there was a real lack of leadership at not just the highest level but even on the ground from those who should have been advising the match commander.

      I'll give you an example that goes to your point that the gates were opened up for the right reasons, I don't agree with you. Yes the gates were opened to stop or prevent a crush at the turnstiles, but at the same time those inside the stadium knew the central pens were at or nearing full capacity. That fact was not communicated between the commanders inside and outside the ground. Additionally no effort was made to steer the influx away from already full pens once the gate was open, despite this being done in the past to prevent a similar incident just a year before. I can only conclude incompetence or negligence in decision making took place as decisions were made on partial information when full information was available.

      There were a series of decisions starting with the FA to award the match to a stadium without a safety certificate to not implementing the full disaster plan even as events unfolded (irony is the local hospitals did so based on information coming in from ambulance drivers, but the police and Ambulance service at the ground did not).

      This is what now really irks me; the verdict was "accidental death". The definition of an accident is an event that could not be prevented, but a series of decisions by those in positions of authority could not only have prevented the accident but mitigated the disaster once it started to unfold. For that people need to be held accountable, which is why the next step must be the overturning of the accidental death verdict, a full and thorough investigation based on all the facts, and where warranted prosecutions of those found to be at fault.

      That is not the individual PC trying to the best he can, or the paramedic trying to give the kiss of life, but those who led them and failed them, just as they imo criminally failed the 96.

      • 1 Reply to dsteer_lfc_68
      • I am not sure the definition of an accident is an event that could not be prevented. Virtually every road accident could have been prevented if one or two people took a bit more care. It seems to me that the disaster plainly was an accident. No-one intended it to happen. That doesn't mean the causes did not include negligence.

        But this is about legal terminology rather than every day definitions. What legal definition would you put on it?

        The purpose of this commission and report was to get to all the truth. Hopefully it has done that. The presumption that this would start to bring closure seems temporarily a false hope as people seem to want every event along the way to be scrutinised again for the possibility of prosecution. This would seem to mean starting all over again but on a bigger scale.

        I am a little bothered by all this talk of prosecution. Liverpool people now obviously feel vindicated that where they perceived (and I didn't) that the fans were blamed before, now the conclusion is that a cover-up happened. But the question of prosecutions over a cover-up is rather separate to the question of prosecutions over the disaster itself. I am not sure we have learned anything new about the causes of the disaster (perhaps I haven't read that bit yet) and so there does not seem to me any more reason to prosecute people for the disaster now than there was twenty years ago.

        Another problem is that the causes of the disaster were mostly to do with the stadium layout. The blame for this really has to be spread over half a dozen agencies and a large number of people. It isn't like when a ship goes down because the bow doors were left open or the captain was showing off sailing too close to the rocks.

        I am not sure that prosecutions for the disaster are possible or even right. But that seems to be a minority view at the moment. There is a smell of vengeance in the air.


        Robert