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  • oscar oscar Oct 7, 2012 17:24 Flag

    Kuyt , Belamy , Maxi , Carroll. Et tu John Henry?

    What was the point? What was accomplished? Disruption?

    Just a suggestion.....but how bout slapping down some cash on a new striker?

    Lifelong Reds supporter......slightly frustrated. Hmmm....perhaps more than slightly.

    John Henry? What's the plan , man? Is there a plan?

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    • Hi Jason

      I was certainly aware of the Dempsey issues (mainly thanks to your input on here and some digging of my own) but something in the background still bugs me a little about the fact that we couldn't or would refuse to stretch that little bit further to land Dempsey. I think it was a gamble that backfired spectacularly which makes the situation quite embarresing. I credit Fulham fo sticking it out.

      Dave makes an extremely valid point about where Dempsey would fit. I still think we'd be short of that striker we all keep banging on about with or without him in the side. For me, when I sit and think about it Dempsey or no Dempsey we'd still struggle for goals. Why? For me it's simple. At the moment our forward line is very mobile which is excellent when you're building up play and starting to apply pressure but at some point you need that focal point, that player, an outright finisher who is in the right position when it counts. Our lot are everywhere else and we rely heavily on a midfielder arriving in the box. Look at goals from Shelvey, Gerrard and Sahin. All arriving late but you have to ask where was the centre forward?

      Kuyt for me would never work in BR's systems. Firstly when he first arrived at Liverpool he was (to me) the same as Borini. Always out of position at that critcal moment when te final ball was needed. He was simply missng working hard setting it up rather than finishing it off. Secondly, Kuyts ball control is legendary. Can you honestly see him playing a quick passing game? I can't.

    • Dave,

      I know alot of people at this point sort of view it that way as well, even me at times, and particularly because I don't like Dempsey, but I understand why he is the way he is and respect him for a hard life etc., but at the same time, let's say we had got it done, even if for higher than FSG valued him (BR did want him), it would have been good business, for now and 2 seasons... take all the endorsement and shirt sales out of it.

      I like Shelvey alot, much more than I ever did 2 years ago, only because he's shown far more skill than I thought he would have, and alot of that is due to Rodgers from pre - season and one of those guys I truly believe gets the best from good players, either tactically or performance wise..

      But, Dempsey would have been perfect to play off of Suarez and the formation could have been 4-2-3-1 which in essence is something he did at Swans, while still theoretically saying it's a 4-3-3.. that's how Gylfi was used off of Graham..

      Having said that, and maybe Jonjo would have made the difference yesterday, Clint would have been in and around that box non stop while Suarez was doing his wasteful best in wide areas.. and he is if nothing else, a ruthless finisher..

      If you take money out of it, and it's not ours, in hindsight, if BR wanted him and they agreed to it, they should have just done it. Again, just going on what I was told, and then read, we probably should have never (BR) said he was a target and maybe avoided the final day issue all together and gotten him for 4-5M

      We've discussed it before.. he's 29, but he's really not based on being an American and our football set up. He's got 3 years minimum left at a good level, and I think he's showing it for Spurs already, with 2 goals? I know 1 for sure, and it was memorable, 3-2 winner at OT.. So in retrospect, teams like Stoke who are happy to get 10 yellow cards and play like goons, with 10 men in the box and we still create chances, he'd have been invaluable yesterday based on current form and last season's..

      Nonetheless it's over and done with, though I feel I can almost predict he scores against us in 1 of the 2 fixtures.. we need to get that type of performance from Shelvey or Sahin consistently, because if nothing else, that's what Clint is.. very consistent and professional.. his stats show his #'s are on the incline too, granted at Spurs he will see a dip, with squad rotation..

      End of the day, the names in this thread, aside from the actual Carroll issue, not Carroll himself, aren't relevant because they were never staying, and just imo, Kuyt the most likely of all 4 to be the one who'd made a difference.. I actually think now, while he still has his legs, could have finally been a featured 9 in 4-2-3-1... while never prolific, he was johnny on the spot.. For me, I'm a believe it will become Yesil, but I don't know when.. sooner than later me hopes..

      Suarez is electric on his day, and maddeningly inconsistent in these types of matches.. I find him hard to tolerate in these..

    • lets not forget about aqualani sold at a big loss charlie adam sold at a loss jay spearing off the wage bill plus the raft of other fringe players that have been pushed out

      the savings on wages for these players is around 450 grand a week around 20-25 million a year and that includes kuyt,bellamy,maxi and carrolls wages then we have any transfer fees received which is more money coming in so weres all the money going we bought allen 15 million assaidi 3 million sahin on loan and yet we couldn,t afford dempsey for 6 million on deadline day somethings not right

      • 1 Reply to John
      • Aquilani had to be sold at a massive loss for a plethora of reasons, none of which had anything to do with FSG or Rodgers.. Adam is really not worth mentioning because he'd be 8th choice cm in this current crop, and while I don't have the final numbers, perhaps someone like Dave does, our net spend was actually somewhere amongst the higher bracket in the EPL...

        Now having said that, while this is all a subject we've beaten to death for months now, something I really don't think is ever taken into consideration, at least not mentioned enough is, the starting 11 or best 11 players being more than good enough to compete and play with anyone at the top of the table on their day, which all are high earners and high priced tag players, yet we are operating without the funds of Champions League Football for over 3 years now, and without any European money at all last season..

        You can't really say how much Champions League would exactly bring in, but it could range from 10-30 Million per season, and the teams we are aspiring to get back to the level of, and overcome, while introducing a new manager, new players, youth players, new system all in it's 1st season, is almost an insurmountable task..

        Look at the amount of endorsement deals FSG have done in their time here... I couldn't even begin to count, but there's got to be well over 5-6 massive deals, and a vast majority of that money goes to servicing the existing wages that have helped retain and re-sign the likes of Skrtel, Agger, Suarez, Lucas..

        They are not filthy rich, billionnaires with money to just toss about like some of the others we want to take over, and for years before them, buys and the club overall has been mismanaged, and they are tightening up wages, getting rid of players that it's fair to say for most of us, aren't good enough but were making too much money, and laying down a new foundation..

        I know it's a new concept, and an ugly one that will never be received well for Liverpool fans including myself, or for many sides in England or Europe, but we are in a rebuilding mode, however, unlike sports here in America, and some very unfortunate football teams in England or elsewhere in Europe, the foundation has not been ripped out, gutted and stripped down to nothing..

        Of all those players mentioned, Kuyt was probably the one we could use the most, but it was a mutual thing, and whatever happened in January, went deeper than money, or not spending it.. something was terribly wrong.. That's not to say we were going to buy Neymar, but Rodgers didn't leave Melwood early in a good mood with a smile on his face, and then defend the owners without some sort of sanity and wit about him probably knowing whatever it is that happened..

    • Seems to me all Henry / FSG wanan do is cut the wage bill and then expect BR to manage with the youngsters.. As they're far cheaper than brining in any decent players..

    • simple answer

      to cut the wage bill

      • 1 Reply to John
      • If I'm not mistaken, Bellamy asked/chose to leave because he said he felt so unhappy every day and just wanted to be with his kids/family.

        Kuyt said he wanted to try a new challenge for himself as a 31 year old going on 32, striker hoping to keep himself in the Netherlands squad, and still contributing at a high level. He was not a wage cut, he had a very ridiculous 1M release clause in his contract

        And, Maxi, pretty much the same story as Bellamy. He was very proud to be a Red, thanked all the fans for a great time at the club and the experience, and wanted to go home..

        Of the 3, I wish we still had Kuyt, and he may have been able to find his way in as a starter, certainly a very impactful sub. I don't think Maxi or Bellamy would be starting

        As for Carroll, it was obviously an issue that BR did not anticipate and a fcuk up on several levels, BUT, for people to continue to point and mention him as almost a fact that he'd have made a difference in this game or any others, is actually getting very tedious, as well as statistically and factually irrelevant... He has something like 5 goals in (approx) nearly 50 EPL league games since his move from Newcastle to LFC and now to West Ham.. I watched the West Ham match vs Arsenal, and he played well, and that's it. Playing well doesn't cut it, and even heard one match commentator call him "immense".. well Arsenal are not exactly known for being a stout or strong team, particularly frail at the back always prone to weak goals, and Andy's immense contributions led to 0 goals or hardly any goal scoring opportunities, even moreso after Arsenal went up 2-1, and WHU went with Sam ball and hoofed and hoofed until the house fell down, and they lost 3-1..

        For Andy to have "been improving" like many said last year.. or to have played "really well" or absurdly called "immense" and not contribute a goal, an assist, and put one very good header chance directly at Arsenal's 3rd choice keeper for any easy save, ultimately leading them to a loss, then it's fair to say alot of this la la land of him "coming good" is transparently tedious..

        We didn't win, we didn't take our chances well, Suarez back to his wasteful best, misplaced passes, but the ball was nearly 60% in our control, almost the entire match on the ground, and that is what Stoke do. Should we have won, YES! But looking back on 3 players who wanted to leave, and another who BR quite frankly doesn't fancy, and is not doing much more in a system/squad specifically designed for him, really doesn't hold any water and takes away from some positives, and I thought there were several..

        I'm sure (110%) we will bring someone in January, and while some will say "oh we'll be in the bottome half or mid table at best" .. well, that's the situation.. We have good enough players as it is to control games and win them, and we matched physicality toe to toe with a handful of kids, and simply lacked the cutting edge.. We're not a top 4 team, but we were airtight at the back, an absolute rock, and sound in every phase of the game, just the very final third.. Quite simply for now, it's on these very players to make that differene because the progression of style and tactics keeps improving and improving by the week even for a blind man to see..

        Comes down to Suarez taking his chances clinically. Getting Borini into some kind of form.. including Yesil who I thought today would have made a difference, and others putting their shots on target

        Oh, and never playing Joe Cole ever again, especially over Suso.. That would be my only complaint aside from not including Yesil or the availability of Jonjo..