Liverpool Message Board
Who the hell does this guy think he is? A CB that almost warranted a 25M transfer to Manchester City with Barcelona sniffing around?
No, he's some second rate, yes man defender who does as he's told, which is clearly what he did here in this article.. I'm pretty sure that Rodgers and FSG each held a gun to his head from each side to make sure he know just what the hell he would saying here, rather than the guy that's called out the team for being "headless chickens", "poor", and "needing to improve fast"..
The fact that he says he's enjoying his football the best in over a year, and he likes the methods of training, style, tactics and how the team are playing tells me, that he is clearly nuts, Rodgers needs to be sacked before the West Ham game, and we have players who clearly only care about relegation..
Of course we have other relegation admirers in Suarez, Skrtel and Lucas who have all signed extensions, and Lucas just recently stating their ambition for the top 4 and Champions League..
There is no sarcasm whatsoever in my post.. Or of course maybe that was sarcastic, considering BR could say a performance (while missing 15-20 chances) was very good, ending in a draw and get slated like a bum, but Agger could say the exact same thing, in a loss at Spurs.. I really do shutter to think what happens in the event of a tie or close loss at West Ham, which is quite a realistic scenario also given no Suarez.. Yawn
I think I have missed the point in the 'boy who cried wolf' thing, it is early though so it might register a bit later on.
Welcome to Thursday nights or afternoons even, it might not be so prestigeous but it gives you something to do on a Thursday! Looking forward to seeing Rafa at Stamford Bridge in a semi final again at somepoint, might be a little different this time......
Ah well, I am certainly more impressed with the quotes from AVB and Sugar than from Agger, in this context.
When I was about seven and it was our class's turn to do something in school assembly, I was chosen to read the story of "The Boy who Cried Wolf". A year or two later and it was our new class's turn to do something in school assembly, I was chosen to read the story of "The Boy who Cried Wolf". It was probably just as well it didn't happen a third time.
Robert I think you might have just hit the slippery slope. If Chelsea were not the worst team in all the examples I offered (and yes including the 2005 CL semi, and of course the 2007 for good measure!) then you are saying in at least one or some of those games Chelsea were the better team despite not getting the win. Therefore if as you seem to now say, it’s possible to lose but be the better team, it’s very hard for you to be critical of BR for saying exactly the same thing.
But since that does not seem to be your point any longer lets address the other two points you've now raised.
First off, I'd not call the obligatory post match interview a PR offensive. The fact he often says similar things would suggest consistency not some propaganda offensive which it seems your suggesting. Secondly, while I grant you may not see as many LFC manager post match interviews as us Reds, surely you have noticed a major difference between Dalglish and BR? It may not have been such a stark change as between Jose and Grant, but it’s not far off it. But additionally I think you might be inflating for the purposes of your own argument the hot air you claim BR is blowing. We've lost 4 matches this term, and at least 2 of them, WBA and Arsenal I think we deserved to get no points, and if memory serves BR never claimed otherwise. The other 2 I would say we played the better football throughout the majority of the match despite not getting the final ball into the net. So saying we did not get what we deserved for half our losses hardly seems like an exaggeration to me, and in fact did you not say you thought two maybe you could accept?
Now maybe your talking only about the draws of which we of course have had many. But how many times have you heard a manager after draw say they did not think they deserved all 3 points? It's almost a Saturday mantra these days, and I think taught under press relations in the FA coaching course. But by definition (your definition at least) a draw would imply two evenly matched teams, neither better than the other, but how many football matches have you gone to where you've thought both sides really performed equally well? Since you've raised the issue in the past how to break the deadlock other than penalties in finals, and I think you've advocated corner kicks, so how about going back to all the LFC draws this season and seeing which side had the most corner kicks? I think you'll find in the vast majority of matches we've piped that stat (as we have with shots, chances created, and possession, although you seem to like that one less).
On your second point, I think you'll conflating the words coming from Agger with those from BR, so not sure how you can pin that one of our gaffer. But it seems to me Agger has offered his personal opinion (unless you think it’s part of a conspiracy that makes up that PR offensive you talked about), and while its subjective as all opinions are, not sure I have any reason to disagree with it, nor debate it.
You are missing the point completely. The old Chelsea teams did not play in the same fashion that you won the Champs League with last year, Ramires scored an excellent solo effort, it wasn't as if the team went out collectively to attack, or as you say 'played one way' for a period, the entirety of the 2 legs was under sustained pressure
The previous years they have actually been far better sides, I think your league position would reflect that pretty comfortably in each situation as our 04/05 winners were a far worse team then our 08/09 side.
It seems to have drastically wandered off from the original point that you made about us claiming to 'outplay' Tottenham, which we did.
From an unbiased view Sir Alan Sugar can be quoted as
"We did not deserve that win tonight . Liverpool were all over us"
AvB: "We were lucky to beat Liverpool"
Steven Gerrard went on to say it was the best a Liverpool side had played at Tottenham in 11 years. The Skysports pundits said we should have had 2 nailed on penalties. Tottenham made 51 clearances from within the 6 yard box, that is why they scored an own goal, it was the 5th that teams have conceded against us this season, from sustained pressure. I know we lost at Spurs, I am aware of that, I also understand that they don't need to attack at 2-0 up but I would strongly countenance that I have never, ever seen Spurs shut up shop at home when in the lead, they don't know how, they just couldn't get the ball.
There's a danger of this going round in circles, but I'll make two points. Against both Barcelona and Munich we were behind for very short times before equalising/taking the lead. Goals change games. When we were level or winning we played one way (and so did they). When we were losing we played another. And it worked.
If we had been losing against against Barcelona for most of the match with them bombarding our goal all through and then nicked the Torres winner at the end I'd be more inclined to think we got lucky. But that didn't happen.
The other point is that we have played quite a few games against Barcelona in the CL in recent years. I think you'll find the only two times they beat us in 90 minutes were when we had a player sent off, and one of those we went through on the return leg. My recollection of the scores between us is:
Chelsea 1 Barcelona 0 (nice Drog strike)
Barcelona 2 Chelsea 2 ("I didn't kick him, I'm not like that")
Barcelona 0 Chelsea 0 (Chelsea ground out result)
Chelsea 1 Barcelona 1 ("it's a f***ing disgrace". Ballack should have beat him up)
2007 group stage
Chelsea 1 Barcelona 0 (Hilario's first game, I was right behind the goal)
Barcelona 2 Chelsea 2 (wondrous Lampard goal from near the corner flag)
Chelsea 1 Barcelona 2 (Del Horno red card)
Barcelona 1 Chelsea 1 (we never looked like going through, to be fair, after the early red card in the home game)
Barcelona 2 Chelsea 1 (Drogba dodgy red card)
Chelsea 4 Barcelona 2 (awesome match)
3-2 to Chelsea and a bunch of draws. The history doesn't support your theory.
Were we better than Barcelona or were they better than us? I can't remember. We were certainly robbed by the referee not giving us any penalties. (In stark contrast to the referee last night who gave three penalties in seven minutes, only one of which should have been given in my view.)
I don't "have a problem that we are happy to see our team playing good football in a time when we don't have the greatest squad". I have a problem with the seemingly constant big talk after matches about how brilliant you were, when you are hardly ever winning.
I dont think they were great examples Dave either as Chelsea actually were outplayed in those games too.
A better example was chelsea's elimination from the champs league against Barcelona in 2009, would you say that Barcelona were the better team that day or that they outplayed you? I wouldn't, I would say you were robbed.
Against Everton recently we had a goal took off us and Everton scored a goal from a throw in that was incorrectly given, you could argue that the scoreline should have been 3-1 Liverpool but Everton actually outplayed us that day too, its ok, I can admit it when it happens (be it long ball bombardment or whatever). We were outplayed by Chelsea for the majority of the game at Stamford Bridge but looked the more threatening side to win it.
I think there has been a big confusion between outplaying and being better then someone. For me, the best teams and the best players are the most consistent ones, that is why Ashley Cole is still better the Enrique despite Enrique having more ability. The same could be argued between Suarez and Van Persie.
It seems you have a problem that we are happy to see our team playing good football in a time when we don't have the greatest squad. We would like to be at the top of the league or close to it but I think it is fair enough comment that if you play better football and have more possesion, chances, territory then with a few more goalscorers in the side, we will be in the mix sooner rather then later.
You mention six games Chelsea lost. Certainly in most of those the other team were better. I'm not going to respond to being baited about 2005.
But you're missing my point. I have two objections to the Liverpool PR offensive. The first is that BR continuing the Dalglish tradition of saying every week Liverpool played brilliantly while not winning doesn't wash. Yes, of course you can be the better team and lose or draw. Many Liverpool fans have recognised and agreed with this. One match. Maybe two. Not every week. It would be like claiming Torres is being the best striker in the league. what does it matter if he's not scoring goals?
The second is that in this case it is very hollow to take about playing a team off the pitch when they go two up in the first fifteen minutes, retain that cushion for most of the match and then concede a fluke goal toward the end. Goals change games and they change the flow of games. As I said, if you're two up you can let the other team play as much as they like, as long as they aren't scoring. I'd be much less cynical about the claim if you had gone ahead early in the game, kept the lead most of the match whilst dominating play and chances, and had conceded two late goals.
In the end, such talk is not objective commentary, it's just bigging yourselves up.
I think Dave basically just explained the point of talking about someone's perception of who dominated, or "played someone off the pitch", by personal interpretation and preference of what defines it. For you, it does seem results, and I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever, that's your preference and in sports, who wins the game is all that matters. If Stoke City make it to the Champions League this year with the rubbish ball they play at times, do you think anyone at Stoke on the Trent will give a flying fcuk while running around with swords and spears? NOPE..
I'm sorry if I didn't articulate or explain, when I threw in Napoli, and obviously I won't hide the fact that I am a Napoli fan, but after that game ended at Stadio San Paulo, including injuries to Bosingwa and someone else (not to relevant), it seemed as if Chelsea had been run absolutely ragged, and 3-1 was a miraculous score. Just so you know, I'm not trying to overplay it or dramatize it, I happen to have that game still recorded on my dvr because it was one of my favorite UCL games in recent history, particularly that Cavani goal where he ghosted in and roofed on past Cech with the tip of his shoulder, and overall a very exciting game. Needless to say, I thought the reverse at the Bridge started in similar fashion with Cavani and Hamsik both coming close very very early and Cech standing on his head.. BUT you won, and kudos to you, etc etc w/ Barca and Munich..
As for the part of people are entitled to criticize or be cynical towards Rodgers for comments as the gaffer, that are basically the same as Agger, of course they are, but you say after each loss.. Well, LFC have lost 1 game in 9.. I'm not sure that % will be so good after Udinese and West Ham in the next 4 days, but I think you see my point.
If key, big players are happy, enjoying their football, and admitting that they are learning things and learning things from Rodgers, and the performances in some people's eyes, seem to be dramatically improving as far as quality, style and consistency, then I see no reason why he should constantly be put to the sword and even made a mockery of, where nobody would really say a word if it were Skrtel, Lucas, Suarez..
It's not Rodgers fault that he has stated over and over he is ever the optimist. It's not his fault, we create 25-30 shots or chances and convert 1, 2 if we're lucky and it's not his fault that he was left wanting in August when clearly he had a plan. He's never come out and said "I thought we were brilliant.... and should have won 4-1 or 5-1", he just says I thought the work rate, the effort, the commitment, and the chances created were wonderful/brilliant... and to that affect, he's said the opposite in games where we've clearly been very bad, ie West Brom, Anzhi, Arsenal, and 1-2 others..
I'm not trying to be overly supportive of a person who isn't showing anything, but I am a realist and an optimist. I look forward to our games, though I do have my reservations with a young and thin squad, but for me, in my own personal opinion, we have played better in more games, and worse in less games, and really feel that there is dramatic improvement and signs leading towards more. I don't know where they end up this year, but barring players in and out, I feel good about 1-2 years down the line..
I suppose I'm sorry for being an optimist like Daniel Agger who actually steps on the pitch, and Rodgers who stands right on the sideline.. what can I say..
Forgive a little scepticism but Agger does seem to have learnt one thing from Rodgers. This "we played Spurs off the pitch" - was this the game you were 2-0 down in fifteen minutes and your late goal was a complete fluke when a Spurs player smashed the ball into Bale's face?
A less biased précis might be
- 2 Replies to Robert M
I think your wrong there Robert, appreciate they are the 'cold and hards' but it would be like claiming Bayern Munich and Barcelona outplayed and dominated you in the champions league last year.....ermm, they completely did, the winner clearly, is not always the better team.
It is funny how our goal was a complete fluke yet the Totenham winner is not deemed in your eyes, a free kick that was incorrectly awarded for a Dempsey dive. One is a goal won by cheating, the other is one forced by sustained pressure.
It is one thing to quote the facts and we all know that 2 goals beats 1 but if you want to add terms like 'fluke' then it has to work both ways.
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