Liverpool Message Board
I don't remember being as disappointed as this in the last few years, a real chance to show we are on the up, improving, getting close to being a real team. We are not. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.
Sorry that you thought my reply was very long - I try to explain as briefly as possible but maybe my English isn't as good as yours as you always seem to manage to be so brief.
That said, given that over a third of my reply was trying to correct an incorrect assertion on your part - maybe you should take a share of the blame? Or perhaps at least be man enought to withdrawal it?
Thank you for the very long reply, but I think I've already given you what I think are steps forward. Of course they are based on my personal opinion after watching each match so if you don't agree not much I can do about that.
"it seemed you put the emphasis on the result when it was poor, but then talked about the performances when the result went our way"
Firstly, that is factually wrong. I talked about our performance against Villa being poor which was matched by the result.
Secondly, the only reason I talked about performance is because you said that you think we were playing much better in November than we were in September and were using that to justify your "definite steps forward" statement. To counter that, I pointed out that in my opinion we haven't been performing well of late. As I posted above, "for me, the only factual evidence that matters are the results" and they haven't been good enough so far (although there are many games to go) - or do you disagree with that last statement?
I have a different view to you Dave and engage in posts with you and others to try and understand your point of view and to see if I can learn something from it. I'm not interested in picking & choosing facts to suit any particular argument. I want BR and my football club to succeed and I hope very much that they do. It's just that I keep hearing and reading how great things are at Liverpool and then I watch them play game after game (admittedly mostly on a dodgy Internet feed from France these days) and look at the table and I can't understand the hype. I've been a fan of the club for almost 40 years and, until a couple of years back, was a regular attendee home and away. I'd rather trust the evidence of my own eyes than listen to statistics about possession or pundits going on about how BR speaks very well about the game.
In Kenny's first full season, he won our first trophy for a number of years, got to another final and was sacked for finishing 7th without Suarez and Gerrard in many of the games. The performance level of the team last year was every bit as good, every bit as exciting as the performance level this season. After almost half the season we are stuck in 12th, only 7 points off first place but also only 7 points off relegation. Tell me again, where the "definite steps forward" this season are?
ps. I write this full in the knowledge that we have 4/5 "winnable" games coming up.
Against Villa I think we had a strong first half, and especially good opening 30 to 40 minutes, near or close to the best we've played all season. But I do think we were flat and predictable in the second half, which is my main critic of that match, as we strayed from BR's tactics it seems to me.
Against WHU while not the most attractive game, I think it is fair it was one of our most gutsy performances so far, so maybe it’s a question when evaluating performance whether its only about style, or not. If we'd come back from a couple lucky goals, or an iffy call from the ref then maybe it’s fair to say we underperformed, but I'd say we played ourselves back into that fixture and deserve credit for doing so.
But the irony I was referring to was the fact I put the emphasis on performance despite the results throughout the season so far, but it seemed you put the emphasis on the result when it was poor, but then talked about the performances when the result went our way.
Yes - it is ironic. But I think our performances against Villa & West Ham were poor and whilst we fully deserved to win against the Saints I don't think it was anything other than an ok performance.
The Udinese game was the best performance in December for me albeit against a team already out of the competition and resting some of their bigger names.
Do you see the performances in December differently from that?
Thanks for explaining. I see what your getting at but I don't agree personally.
For me, the only factual evidence that matters are the results. They haven't been good enough so far but there are plenty of games to go.
I'm also not sure that we played any better in November than September but, as you say, that is subjective. On top of that our performances this month have been pretty poor I would say.
Hi Noo Noo
That's fair enough although I would point out a few things ...
You mention the number of goals conceded through having no cover and full backs flying forward but then blame this on a bad pass (by Gerrard in your example but others are as guilty in my opinion). Players won't get every pass right, especially if they are trying to affect the game with a more incisive pass, so I would argue that the system is more to blame for not dealing with the consequences of that.
You argue that there is no need to adapt the system as Gerrard is capable of adapting but seem to have suggested that Gerrard is struggling to adapt in your first post - am I understanding that right?
You compare us to Barca. I'd point out that Barca have been building their system for 20 years and have spent plenty of money bringing in players to play that system (including some 'plan B' players). It's only relatively recently that many of the home-grown players have evolved. My point is that Barca didn't try and do it on a budget overnight.
I still feel that the managers job is both short and long term. Usually, if you don't get the short term right, the long term becomes irrelevant as you won't be around to implement it.
Sorry I see where you're going. I have a very critical view on Gerrard which many may disagree with. It's probably very contraversial at the very least.
Firstly how many goals have we conceded this year from a sloppy pass in midfield, where we are completely ut open by a lack of midfield cover and wandering full backs? Several I'd say.
Gerrard has often been the midfield culprit in my book being guilty of a sloppy pass and being out of position. In my opinion Benitez realised his wandering tendancies and did two things to counter it.
1. he stuck him on the right where he would be forced to control himself
2, He took him out of teh defensive equation all together and played him behind the lone striker.
Both worked very well as Gerrard was given the license to impact on the game.
Also I believe that Gerrard is an extremely difficult player to work with (on the pitch). Lampard couldn't work with him and Benayoun was the same> Seldon did we see the two on the pitch at the same time and I believe that's one reason why. Injuries and Benitez's defensive tendancies were the others but when they did play you could see them trying occupy the space.
The 3 man midfield as demands a disciplined approach which we haven't quite got yet. It also needs to be fluid enough to allow the short passing game. See Barcelona. Their movement is short and quick. Gerrards is longer.
Should Rodgers employ as system that works for Gerrard? Not really because Gerrard is one thing - flexible. He can adapt his game on top of his ability to win a game single handed. His recent England perfromances show how he can curb his game.
I also think that when you look at where we are then a complete restart / reboot becomes sensible. We were such a mess that it makes perfect sense to pull everything togather and basically change the whole way the club does things. It makes sense while you're at the bottom of the cycle, not at the top. Barcelona did it and look at them now.
Hi Noo Noo
I'm not sure if I misunderstood your reply.
You posted an opinion that SG was suffering in BR's system. I asked if it is the job of a manager to create a system to get the best out of the players at his disposal (the knives in your analogy) or whether he should play the system he prefers regardless.
You seem to be suggesting he does both but I think they are two mutually exclusive options unless you already have the players effective at playing BR's system (which your opening post suggested we didn't).
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