Liverpool Message Board
Because not only did we not get a result, but we lost at Stoke. So, in keeping true to form, Stoke have not been beaten at the Britannia in 16 matches, and those previous 15 teams who did not win there, all sacked their managers too, so we should do the same, despite last week's performance and a good overall patch of form..
This would also only make logical sense after beating Fulham 4-0, which was our biggest goal differential in league play in all of last season and this, and with 4 different scorers, Suarez only getting on the mark in stoppage time.
We'd also been in the top of the form table with 2 losses in 13 matches..
BUT, with the possibility of perhaps picking up 6 points vs QPR and then Sunderland, along with the addition of 2-3 new faces, maybe we can reconsider? Bahhh, what am I thinking...!
I do agree with the fickle, his job status, and evaluation should be maintained on a week to week basis, not on a body of work over any extended period of time, and we should just change managers every other month based on how they do in 4-5 matches.
I shutter to think what might happen if we can claim (and I try to never think further than 1 result at a time) 6/6 vs QPR and Sunderland, getting within a touching distance of top 4, but then faulter at relegation battlers Manchester United at Old Trafford, even if god forbid it's a 1 goal game or late winner..
Start dusting off and polishing up those CVs, along with the very lengthy list of MASSIVE names of those in line for the job, and job needed to be done.. Don't be offended if you're passed over by Cryuff or Guardiola, since they've been in line since early June..
I hate to be a wet blanket Jason but the Stoke defeat is not an isolated incident. Two weeks ago we lost 3-1 at home to Aston Villa who since then have lost by an aggregate score of 12-0 to Chelsea and Spurs.
I admire the football that Brendan is trying to implement but the fact remains, his record is the same as when Roy got fired 2 years ago. This team has no character or identity, you never know which Liverpool is going to show up, is it the one that walloped Fulham 4-0 or the dismal one against Stoke. We hardly ever come from behind to win, unless you count the West Ham game where we actually led then let that lead slip. We have been 2-0 up versus City and Everton but still failed to win those games, we could not hold on to that lead at Stoke for more than THREE minutes, we led against M U and still lost, just to quote a few examples. When we go a goal behind the players just seem to wither and hide, there is no confidence that they will come back and even when we are leading, we are always on tenterhooks not sure if we are going to maintain our lead.
Unless this team assumes an identity, then they will continue to be this Jekyll and Hide team and I doubt if we will progress much.
- 1 Reply to mel n
All reasons he needs to be sacked now..
But more seriously, I never like to accept defeat, nor ever say I don't expect to win or play well, but if I'm 100% honest, every year, I see that game @ Stoke, I cringe and I chalk it up as a loss, with a tie best case scenario. I think LFC only have 2 league wins there all I time...
As far as comparing him to Roy, well I couldn't find anything further apart considering we had just been absolutely blasted at Rovers, 3-1, were sitting 13th with a -3 goal differential. Not exactly the same thing, and we had Torres, Meireles, Kuyt and Maxi .. So not only big difference in team standings, but clearly a lost ship with awful tactics going nowhere fast.
For the Mr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing, for the overall body of work, yes, I can agree with that as there have been times where I feel I've watched one thing 4 days ago, and something totally different the next. Though, I feel it has tightened up a bit, and while nobody in the world saw that Villa result coming, not by a longshot, let's say it didn't, and perhaps we'd won, that would have been 4 on the spin, and I still think a loss at Stoke..
I think alot of the game, or the way players play does come from managers, but yesterday, when I see Daniel Agger play an absolute shocker, including whatever that was leading to the first goal, where Skrtel ends up alone facing 2 men and the ball and gets bowled over, makes me scratch my head.. The 2nd goal, Stevie is on the post, if that's what you want to call it, but yet a large enough gap for a person to walk through, let alone a header.. And once it was 2-1 that quickly, just like that, at their place, it's all she wrote..
I don't really recall anything meaningful from Gerrard in the midfield, nor any physical or composed play from Lucas, or the aggressive physical nature we've come to see from Shelvey, and we're not going to get that from Suarez/Suso/Downing up front, so I don't really know what else to say because, Sterling and others weren't really much better as far as difference makers in this one..
He's said over and over he feels the squad is too thin, and it's the truth, on top of laden with youth, that we rely on heavily, and always likely to struggle in this type of game.. I don't even know where a comeback for 2 goals would have come from without a Suarez magical miracle..
Bottom line, while no, this is not good enough, and I can't stomach games and results like that, the squad is still being overhauled, still needs additions, and is still young/transitioning.
If they put out that type of performance vs QPR and home to Sunderland, then I think we'll have a serious problem and very good cause for concern, but I remain the optimist, and don't expect either as well as looking forward to the additions we're expecting to see..
End of the day, all this stuff (squad being thin aside) about the character and results does fall on the manager, but to have a feisty experience player like Agger have such a nightmare, and then to see Enrique come out after the fact and say he and his teammates need to show more strength and character, shows that some who actually put on the uniform and kick the ball, need to not just stop talking about it, especially after the fact, but go out and do it, and do it consistently..
Sorry to be picky, but we led City 1-0, then 2-1, undone by a terrible 1 off by Skrtel, and yes blew 2-0 to Everton, but scored an incorrectly ruled offsides winner.. It is "what if" talk, but, the irony and truth is, "if" .. people are singing praises rather than down in the dumps..
I've had enough of the 1 step forward and 2 steps back way of things with Rodgers in charge.
I now see where in the market for Wigan's striker di santo. Whose a crap striker. well not the striker whose gonna raise our fortunes.
We may play the prettiest brand of football the world has ever seen but the bottom line is that if we dont put the ball in the back of the net then it has all been in vain. We are all in agreement that Stoke are a hard team to beat, that they play the worst possible football that one would ever hope their team to play, however they are not losing. Our team plays beautifully most of the time but compared to Stoke we are easy beats. I agree with Enrique when he says the team needs a fighting spirit and that can only come from the manager (i.e Brendan), it is his job to instil a fighting mentality within the team. Right now when we go a goal down there is hardly any fighting spirit displayed by the players and when we take the lead we display a vulnerability that suggests we can concede at any time. We had to hang on to 1-0 victories at home against Reading and Southampton with a few nervous moments towards the end of those games. As I said earlier we are never sure which Liverpool team will turn up for any given game. Liverpool is well known for displaying a never say die attitude (Instanbul and Cardiff being prime examples), this current team does not have the fight of the Liverpool that we are used to. Yes they play pretty but they are as fragile as china glass, a 1-0 or even 2-0 lead is not enough to guarantee us a victory whilst a 1-0 deficit always seems like a mountain to climb.
I am not saying Brendan needs to be sacked, I am just saying the buck should stop with him. We have the same number of points now from the same number of games as when Roy got fired but because Brendan has us playing pretty, people ignore that fact. I for one dont see any progress, just a change in the style of play.
- 3 Replies to mel n
Totally agree with you. I said in another thread that this team hardly come from behind to win, capable of losing a good lead, hardly score a late winner, capable of the most unlikely results against the bottom team (recent Villa results make me wonder why we can lose to them?), can hardly get 3 points from any team above us (that's why we are below them).
It is going to be tough struggle. We don't have anyone on the pitch who can rally the rest and shout at each other.
I actually don’t disagree with most of that Mel. We do need to show more character in matches, and I'd hoped the WHU match would have been a turning point where we did show some character, but it seems it’s not stuck.
I also do think it’s down to the manager to help create that, but also have to recognize how young the set of players he's working with is, and therefore how hard a task he has on his hands. We’re not talking about many seasoned veterans here, but quite a few kids who need to be taught not to be intimidated. It seems to me they almost always go out believing in themselves, their team mates and the system, hence some of our great starts to games, but are too easily dented if or when things don’t go to plan. But I so have to give some credit, its few times I’ve seen the lads actually stop playing. Even down by 2 at Stoke, and still getting clattered into, they kept going.
But on the progress issue I do have some disagreement. Progress is movement from one place to another. Positive progress assumes moving forward, negative the opposite. We are on or about the same point total now as when Roy was in charge, however you have to take account of where we were coming from before that point.
In hindsight I don't actually put all the blame on Roy (the previous owners I think have major culpability) but he took a team that had just fallen out of the top 4, having finished 6th the previous season, with the expectation that we'd bounce right back, and took us down further in the table. It's hard to argue from the point he began to the point he left us, under his regime we were going in the wrong direction.
For BR he did take over a club that finished 8th, but its second half form was well below that as others have pointed out. Near relegation battlers I believe. Based on that we're well above relegation performance so it could be argued we're moving forward, but the highest we've reached so far is 8th, so maybe the progress is rather stunted.
But for some it comes back to how they define progress, and how much expectations plays into things. If that means not reaching a certain target, and some still have the expectation that not being in the top 4 is failure they will never see progress. However if progress is moving forward from the current position toward a goal, then I think it’s a different matter. I also think it is important to look beyond the raw statistics. They are important as measurements, but other factors can be considered.
If Rafa had not won the CL in 2005 (and some still think he did it with someone else’s side) most would say he took us backward in his first season in charge. Based on pure statistics that would be fair, but he was also building a platform for progress, by bringing in his players, instilling his ideas, and building up things behind the scenes. It’s that platform that got us to Cardiff, and make us think we could take a serious run at the league. Question is does anyone see the same building by BR that may not pay off this season, but will in seasons to come?
"We have the same number of points now from the same number of games as when Roy got fired"
the other difference is under kenny u seemed to create more & u were so unlucky with the amount of times u hit the woodwork.
but kennys main mistakes were his signings. some very average ones.
I agree with that and with much of what Piers posted. Of course you are right that I will have to put up with it. Like everyone else on here I have no control over the decision Liverpool make but that doesn't stop any of us posting our opinions.
The only question I have is over this conviction that BR is the correct man to take the club forward during this root and branch restructuring of the club. I'm not saying he's not - I've said many times that he needs a minimum of two years before he is judged.
It's just that I don't see what you, Piers, Dave, Noo Noo and many others (notably in the media) see which gives you such conviction that he is the right guy. Nothing in the guys history - either before Liverpool or since he's joined - has proved your faith well placed as far as I can see.
Dave had a go at trying to convince me but his argument seemed to boil down to "I believe we are playing better". I have no reason to doubt that's what Dave thinks but I just don't see it.
I'll repeat that the guy gets my support and I hope he becomes the manager that we all hope he will be. I would love to have an epiphany on BR where all becomes clear and I see what everyone else does - can you or Piers help?
ps. Happy New Year.
I think to help see it, just compare starting lineups to that of last year's where we all universally assumed 4th spot at bare minimum. Compare the bench as well..
These 2 things don't represent much of anything visible, but really look, compare, and view the differences and try to quantify what should have been, vs what is.. As I've said, I don't like the standings, I don't accept the standings and I never will, but while many of you have grown up LFC and experienced some of the glory years, I've been a supporter about 10 years, and obviously Instanbul and some other trophies, I've not, so for me, it's been cut and bandage over and over and over.. Unless we're to lose Skrtel Agger Lucas and Suarez, this is about as drastic as it's been and could be..
Suso - Bellamy
Assaidi - Maxi
Shelvey - Carroll
Cole - A tree
Henderson - A rock
Kuyt - A fire hydrant
(Also makes that start vs start comparison a little easier to see and digest)
Anyways, as I'm typing, it's Suarez 2 - 0, so let's hope this carries on along with the team performance and into a better 2013, along with a Happy and Healthy New Years to everyone here on the LFC boards.
Happy New Years! Cheers!
And btw, while this is mostly a football discussion, and most threads are, or intended to be, let's not forget what a momentous year this has been as far as people, supporters, families and justice.. While I'll never know the full gravity of it all, nor will many others, if nothing else, absolutely tremendous strides have been made to help all those who can appreciate it most. I'd sacrifice any player or scoreline to give something back to those who've lost the most.. JFT96!
Sorry - I'm sure this is me being dense - but I'm not clear what point you are making.
Firstly, I don't think many thought that 4th was a minimum last year other than those that really matter - the owners.
On the bench - are you saying that we have improved as a squad or got worse? We have certainly gotten younger.
Agree with the last sentiment.
I was showing what I believe, a deeper, more experienced, more accomplished, more dependable (mostly), and more end product, vs what we have today, which by in large part is, exactly what you said, much younger. Also, more talented long term.. whether they reach potential, only time will tell.. but signs for Shelvey, Sterling, Suso (not used properly imo) and even Allen (22) are there, even if spotty at times..
I didn't say, though they did, 4th was expected, but rather largely assumed here, going into last season, even for some, 3rd within punches of challenging. After seeing things through, and then into the 2nd half, it was clearly not to be, to be kind.
To sum it up, besides Reina (who can go for me) Skrtel Agger Glen Enrique Lucas and Gerrard, who all start elsewhere in the prem, the club was "almost" completely gutted, without anything close to a full rebuild.. Allen, Borini, Assaidi, Yesil and Sahin came in. Borini and Yesil are long term, Allen too, I have no clue what Assaidi is, even getting in squad today but not considered in a 3-0 easy match, and Sahin probably goes back. Assuming Sturridge, Ince, Butland (even 1 or 2) come in, that's still not enough to go punch for punch with United, City, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal regularly, talent for talent..
So, it's a rebuild, though by the American Sports Standard, and how FSG could/would really like to do, the whole club wasn't completely torn to pieces, which one could argue may have been needed all together (if you don't fancy the 4-5 core players who remained). In doing that, we'd go down via relegation, and suffer far far worse. It's routine in American Sport season in, and season out, as it is for Gary and Sean to spell their own names wrong.
If all the new (not enough) players in, help and produce, and the youth promoted, are better for it, I don't see any way of not being progress on those merits alone. We may finish 8th, 9th, 10th, which absolutely FCUKING S.UCKS, but is reality, and worst part is, we could have more points, goals, clean sheets etc., than last term.. And of course, calling for Rodgers' and FSG's heads..
Great cap to a tumultuous 2012, which sees us on a points tally to theoretically surpass last. Let's hope for another result against Sunderland and more consistency going forward..
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