Liverpool Message Board
In Rodgers' post match interview he stated that we aren't 24 points behind United in terms of quality but we are in terms of squad.
I thought this would make an interesting point of discussion.
For me there are differences in quality but it's slightly more subtle that many will have you believe. Yes Van Persie is scoring at will but we also have quality in Suarez and he is not too far away from the Dutch marksman.
The league table reveals a lot. Believe it or not we have actually conceded less goals than United, just. We've conceded 28 to their 29. That figure isn't The goals for tally is where the difference lies. We haven't scored enough, surprise surpise. Why?
Two reasons stick out for me, the midfield and full backs. Yesterday and for many years actually we've seen United create a numbers advantage going formward through their full backs. This has stemmed from a rock solid platform in mifield allowing their fullbacks the freedom and confidence to push on and overlap the wide midfielder / winger depending on what system they play. This creates a two on one or overlap against the opposition full back. The exploit it all the time and has brough them so many dividends over the years.
I would have never have put the likes of Cleverly and Carrick as a rock solid platform from which they can attack. Especially over a midfield that contains Gerrard but yesterday it was there for the first hour.
Rodgers has a lot of work and for me the midfield must again take priority. At this level it's possible to dominate possession but the real trick and difficulty is doing it under pressure, we can't and getting penetration. This should come from full backs but we haven't seen enough of it. When it works goal finishers of the likes of Van Persie, Nistelroy etc. have an easy day.
Food for thought and I welcome peoples thoughts and comments
WTF is Rodgers banging on about with this quote?
24 points diff is due to just having a superior squad WITH quality in depth. You can't separate the two and try and explain it as only one factor or the other.
If Rodgers is trying to suggest our best XI can match United for quality, again I think the evidence just doesn't stack up. This isn't about names on paper, it's about those names pulling together as a team and getting results. United are where they are because they've been doing that better than anyone. We haven't beaten a top half team all season.
We only have a few really high quality players on our roster now. Hardly any game changers or consistent performers. United in comparison..... well sadly there is no comparison
Yup. My points exactly
Another point I'm trying (badly) to make is that our manager needs to be someone with the vision and will to completely remodel the club. I've got no real complaints with Rodgers on that front so far. There's no quick fix unless you've enough cash to go and buy the Barcelona squad.
I cant think of many managers out there that would be able or willing to take such a task on. None of the so called big guns would. They tend to come and go after a season or so having won a trophy with someone else's work.
I think it really does come down to how people view FFP and whether it will bite or not. But the fact that even Chelsea have tightened their purse strings this year, reporting their first profit in who knows how long, and even City evident by not going crazy this past summer, are doing the same, suggests most clubs are looking at reigning in spending to meet the new regulations.
But I think Colin is right on one point, which is we cannot compete with the likes of Utd, City or Chelsea. They just happen to earn way more than us. He points out the higher gate at OT, but we should also consider the extra money they get on a regular basis from CL, which we have not seen in years. Spending more than we earn would not just potentially violate FFP, its simply not good business. It’s not how a family budget should be run, a company's budget, a governments budget, so why do we think it’s good idea for a football club to take such an approach? So to gauge if FSG is actually investing enough, maybe we should look at clubs who have similar earnings as us, and those clubs are not those in the top 4, but their tier below that.
So finally your point is there is two ways of building the club back up, either throwing lots of cash at the problem, which is the quick route (although btw not overnight either if the example of City is anything to go by, as it took them about 3 seasons of heavy spending before silverware started coming through the door, or regular top 4 finishes were secured), or try doing it piecemeal by living within our means but looking to improve season over season.
Now the first is risky which is my biggest concern because if it does not work immediately it risk us becoming the next Leeds, Pompy or Rangers, plus it also risks us running afoul of FFP. But the second is frustrating as it takes time, requires patience, and it may be harder to see progress in a short period of time (say over just 6 months for example).
that's fair enough bud.
Good quesions to be fair and I can only guess that the answer is FFP. Basically the wage bill with all the dead wood in the squad is pretty much strangling anything we do anywhere.
I also don't agree witht the net spend argument. We got £50m for Torres which really skews the numbers. Although we did spend £35m on Carroll. Mental times!!! I suppose you could argue that we replaced one lump of dead wood with another and made £15m from it.
to take the club forward you can bin a bucket load of cash at the problem as City or Chelsea did and somehow stay within FFP ( but that only applies to Europe) or you can try and chip away at the problem, put a manager in place that will rebuild with you (and stay) and work at getting cash from elsewhere. That's what Liverpool are doing but it won't happen over night.
lastly I disagree with your thoughts on Rodgers not doing anything. We haven't seen a manager that's as prepared to change things during a game at Anfield since Jose's last visit. Rodgers is and has made substitutions before half time if necessary. He'll change formation too. Just because he hasn't instructed Carragher to lump it up to a big man doesn't mean that things haven't changed.
Noo Noo...If u look at Kennys NET spend while with us and that of BR not a lot of difference. I truly believe Kenny brought a passion and tactical awareness that BR does not have. It looks to me very much like BR is at the root of the sides problem. He looks dispirited on the touchline...iits not a question of having to be screaming at everyone like SAF but at least LOOK like u have an interest in whats going on out there on the pitch !
We cannot compete in the transfer market with CITEH and Chelski or UniTURD they have a ground holds 78,000 and its at capacity every game. The difference in earnings from season tickets enables them to pay such as RVP the salary required whereas we can pay only the salary level demanded by such as Sterling or Sturridge and are looking to offload players simply to get their salaries off our books Joe Cole loan ofAndy C Sahin to dortmund ? For all of this I dont feel BR is solely to blame but u have to ask u self why instead of constantly bleating in the national sporting press that our squad is THINwhy isnt he addressing this with FSG and if he is why arent they addressint this problem now while they ave a chance to in this transfer window ? My guess is because they arent about to spend much if anything and have pretty well written off our season the Sturridge buy was simply to rectify the problem they caused by letting Andy C go out on loan and failing through incompetency and penny pinching to land Dempsey to replace him. You ask is BR taking the club forward...for me mate the answer much though I hate to say it is...NO and looking at him on the touchline I dont think Im going to be changing my opinion any time soon.
Sofa look at my post on this thread in answer to Noo Noo...thing is u right BR is a yes man specifically appointed by FSG to be just that. He accepts that their is no serious money left to splash where FSG are concerned cos thats what hes been tol
Pep would want SERIOUS MONEY splashed by the owners to bring about REAL SUCCESS quickly via HIS team but IF we had kept Kenny for another season we would Im sure be seeing a far more successful season than we are right now. Kenny could work within budgetary limitations and convey far more passion to the Boys than BR will ever be capable of...So forget about Pep unless the owners are prepared to pay Chelski or Citeh style wages for top World Class players and with FSG thats NOT going to happen 6 to say up to15 mill quid players who are prepared to accept pretty low wages by Prem standards is what u can expect out of these owners. Im afraid our best chance of any real success in the not too distant future resides in the idea of the owners getting an offer from some Arab consortium for the club that they just cant refuse ...not beyond the bounds of possibillity they are after all like our other Yank owners before them ...BUSINESS MEN.
Yes but Noo Noo has Rodgers got it in him to do that? He's not managed anybody of significance until now.
Maybe in 10 yrs time he'd be ready to do so. I think it's too soon to have Rodgers here.
Thing is FSG were looking at a young manager. Probably a yes man. Thats what they got. So should we be really surprised in the crap way we're playing?
Yes THIS IS LIVERPOOL FC so much is expected. I seriously have my doubts about FSG too. They don't seem keen to wanna splash the cash. LFC is their club so you'd think they'd wanna make it successful and be right up there at the top.
Yet once again I can see us being 8th in the league again. Well 8th place cost KD his job so if we finish around 7th or 8th should we not expect that too to mean bye bye Rodgers?
If Rodgers is still here when we finish around 8th in the league then FSG will be hypocrits.
I think they should make a serious push and get Guardolia.
Why have a Barca knockoff style under odgers when we could have the the real thing under Pep.
If we wanna compete we have to accept that we'll need to splash out and we won't get the money back on the players we sell but .. we'll have won some cups and maybe even a league title..
Maybe buying young and selling on works in the US.. but in european football.. winning is the key.
Also I take your point about Rodgers just buying players he's worked with before.. that tells me he's a weak manager and can't manage the top players.. I suspect we'll never get any top class players coming here whilst Rodgers is the manager.
I guess that's my my point really. Every club needs some form of figurehead that defines it and makes it what it is. Other than Rodgers there is no one in that position. He's been placed in that position (partly at his own request I might add) and it's up to him to shape the club the way he sees fit. FSG certainly aren't forward enough over here to do and they don't seem to be doing it either, preferring to be in the background. So long as everyone pulls together with that figure head everything is hunky dory.
I would also add that Dalglish wasn't or didn't take that step this second time round. Whether that was because of Commolli or other things in the background I'm not sure. It's also true that he wasn't given much time but it could be argued that results and "other things" made certain people feel that the direction was the wrong one.
You've picked out Wenger and that situation / analogy is a good one. Arsenal is Wenger for sure but I certainly don't know what constraints he's working under or how much he's actually put in place himself. Arsenals contract / wage strategy for example and of course there's the stadium and what influence that has had. But my point still stands. He came in, was given time to put his ways and methods in place and it reaped rewards. Something seems to have goten in the way afterwards though.
Actually Robert I think you make a very good point and I never really thought of it this way before. Not sure this is really what you’re saying, but I'm hearing and agreeing that the myth of Chelsea chopping and changing is really a myth and in fact you are one of the most consistently run clubs in the prem.
Now what I mean is why does it have to be the manager who provides the consistency? It worked under Fergie, but it’s a question mark whether it still works under Wenger. But you bring up Barca which tells me it’s not just about the manager, but how the club is run, by whoever is really in charge.
Yes you've had a number of coaches (maybe that is what you should call them instead of managers?) but only one man who not only owns the club but runs it. Utd are the opposite, it does not really matter who owns them, it’s the purple nose one that runs the show.
So in some ways we've had the worst of both worlds. Multiple owners, each with their own issues, and a series of managers who we want to say have been in charge, but since Rafa have not stayed long enough to really put their own stamp on things.
Who knows if BR is the right man to really take charge (or if FSG will let him) but seems clear to me, just over half a season is not nearly long enough for us to know.
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