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  • Hobitez Hobitez Jan 29, 2013 09:58 Flag

    How do you measure progress and what is acceptable?

    I know we all want a top 4 finish and we know that is the target but I wonder what everyone would deem a succesful season and what they would consider progress.

    For me, at the start of the season after we let Kuyt, Carroll, Maxi, Bellamy,Aquilani and Adam go without bringing in the reinforcements I knew it was a hiding to nothing year. The bravery of BR to bring Sterling, Suso, Wisdom and co into the fold guaranteed patience in my eyes whilst bringing in some young signings to replace the old guard. My view was that if we finished in the same place then it would be deemed progressive as we would achieve the same on a smaller wage bill with players who would grow with a view to improving over time, that hasn't really changed for me.

    To put it in numbers, here are our league stats for the last 2 seasons

    2011-12 - 8th place - 52pts - F47 A40
    2010-11 - 6th place - 58pts - F59 A44

    and here is where we currently lie with 15 games remaining:

    2012-13 - 7th place - 34pts - F40 A28

    if we were to continue the season on average as we have so far, this is our final standings (can't tell you a position!)

    56 pts - F66 A46

    Does that not suggest progress has been made? I think that it is a fair assumption that the young players have progressed sufficiently so far, also that the team is playing better then earlier in the season whilst the squad is notably going to be stronger over the run in. In my humblest of opinions, to finish with 60 points has to be regarded as somewhat of a success considering the level of transition, I don't think it will be enough to finish in the top 4 but it would be a proven improvement with long term prospects.

    Forget what you dream of being and make sure tomorrow is better then today, that is exactly what we have been doing, looking forward to some feedback!

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    • Noo Noo just now posted up more or less same as u post on stats in response to Hobs critique...but like u I stand by what I said about Kenny being before his second coming our most ever "winning" manager to ratio of games he was in charge either as player-manager or manager. Of course if Hillsborough hadnt taken such an emotional toll on him and his family who knows what glories he might have gone on to but thats just speculation on my part.. The same arguement in favour of Roberto de Matteo...as u say he added MAJOR silverware to Chelskis Trophy Room and who knows what he might have added further to it if left in place as manager but for me the man did a sterling job for them and was treated even more shabbily than Kenny was by FSG Im hoping Chelski are now paying penance being saddled with Benitez and his stubborn ways till they sink to mid-table ...or worse..... before shi*canning him ...ha ha ha..

    • hobs...yes to a great extent u are right...now u see what Ive been posting for seasons on here to the believers in raw stats... they dont tell the whole truth ...do they ? They can be manipulate usually to suit whatever arguement one wishes to put fw ..thats why Im not a big fan of forever posting up stats...passes completed must be "avin a laugh" look how many back and forths to no avail in deep defence hold position strategy there were between Carra and Lucas or whoever during Rafas time; this before Carra would hoof it up the middle for a loss of possession or high up the wing and out of possession ? BUT looks greart all that back and forth on pass completion rate.

    • If your prediction does turn out to be true then yes it's progress.. Probably might make us 6th or 5th by the end od the season.. Depending on results of course..

      Would everybody be happy with 5th or 6th in the league?

    • Yes and what fun we could have reminding Robert M of the fact! Simple truth though he was pretty damn successful and did more than his fair share of adding silverware to the cupboard.

      All intended to be a bit of fun and to be honest while STATS are useful they have their place. I have a saying:

      "It's possible to make statistics tell you anything you want."

      It's completely true as well. It's possible to manipulate figures and look at them from different angles and parameters to come up with "Rafa facts" or complete and utter bovine excrement.

    • That isnt particularly relevant though really is it?! :)

      I imagine that formula would make Roberto Di Matteo the greatest Chelsea Manager of all time! If not, the greatest manager to have ever lived.

    • Hey Colin

      Small correction ... it was three days out at Wembley (you're forgetting the semi against the Toffees)

      Agree with the rest of your post thought ;-)

    • I'll be interested to see what happens at Utd when SAF retires. I personally think the Glaziers, and foreign owners are bad for Football in the long run. Most are Absent Landlords who seem happy to take their pound of flesh excepting for Roman and the Sheiks of Citeh who just seem to be in it for fun....but what happens when the fun stops?

    • RON J...most on the board didnt grow up standing in a,seething sea of humanity 30,000 souls behind one goal on The Kop roaring themselves hoarse willing the Reds to yet another in a seemingly endless sequence of home wins. Wed no idea what a balance sheet was ...Yeh Wha? Whas one a dem ?
      In our late teens early 20ies we were content if we had enough money to spend on seeing the match home and away and enough in our pockets for a few pints before and after the match to laugh and chat about how our Lads had worked the voodoo on yet another side of hapless opponents.
      Most on the board only know of Mr Shankly"s time at the club via what theyve read they didnt experience the raw emotion of a man who identified so closely with the fans he was one of us. Most onthe board never stood on the terraces in London clubs grounds where any neutral would have thought that it was a Liverpool HOME game when we had 35000 of,oursupport inside their ground.
      So Im sure many on the board would tell us "Calm Down ! Calm Down ! Look Old Timer Football is a business these days u have to take account of the clubs balance sheets and bear in mind the coming advent of FFP and its effect."
      Back in the day transfers were like Xmas Pezzis they just seemed to materialize and the fee paid didnt remain a talking point for very long unlike now. Transfers always seemed to be incoming I mean who wanted to leave after they had finally ARRIVED ? I spose we just have to adjust to the way things are and adopt the mentality of the young turks and move withthe times eh ? BUT this is Progress ? Yes those thatactually attend at Anfield have comfortable seats good specs yes but is it as much FUN as we had all together as members of The Kop ? Where as Mr Shankly said "You have thousands of friends all round about you, loyal, true." I dont think so....
      I spose I really dont give a flying Fµ** about finances and balance sheets and FFP and FSG Im dreaming of Suarez and Sturridge linking up and forming the kind of partnership we saw in St John+Sir Roger Hunt Keegan+Toshack Dalglish+Rush maybe if that dream comes true we can be talking REAL PROGRESS EH ?

    • ron j...Im with u mate its NOT progress from the standpoint of the type of fan thee and me are BUT the young turks on the board werent brought up in the atmosphere of Anfield back when u had 30,000 fanatics swaying in unison and roaring themselves hoarse on The Kop willing the lads to ...WIN !!!
      They will tell us that "Football is a Business now Old Timer" so we should "Calm Down ... Calm Down !"...lol. They most of them only KNOW Mr Shankly and what he really meant to this clubof ours from what theyve read and maybe in some cases from what their dads have in tearful nostalgia tried to tell them of that time.
      Of course to us transfers seemed to come out of the blue and of course back then we were talking about incoming...who wanted to leave once they had ARRIVED ? We didnt much care what anybody cost us it didnt long remain a talking point. We never saw or cared to see a club balance sheet ...Whats one o' dem ?....as we paid our money and filed through the old turnstiles...click... click FFP wtf would that have meant to us back then ? Most of us back then in our late teens early 20ies didnt have wads of cash to spend we were lucky a lot of us to have enough to see the match and have a few pints before and after the game and talk and laugh about the voodoo the Lads in Red had worked on the opposition yet again ! No mention of the financial viability of the club we supported home and awayHappy Daze eh ? Progress?...Dont make me laugh.

    • ron j...Im with u mate its NOT progress from the standpoint of the type of fan thee and me are BUT the young turks on the board werent brought up in the atmosphere of Anfield back when u had 30,000 fanatics swaying in unison and roaring themselves hoarse on The Kop willing the lads to ...WIN !!!
      They will tell us that "Football is a Business now Old Timer" so we should "Calm Down ... Calm Down !"...lol. They most of them only KNOW Mr Shankly and what he really meant to this clubof ours from what theyve read and maybe in some cases from what their dads have in tearful nostalgia tried to tell them of that time.
      Of course to us transfers seemed to come out of the blue and of course back then we were talking about incoming...who wanted to leave once they had ARRIVED ? We didnt much care what anybody cost us it didnt long remain a talking point. We never saw or cared to see a club balance sheet ...Whats one o' dem ?....as we paid our money and filed through the old turnstiles...click... click FFP wtf would that have meant to us back then ? Most of us back then in our late teens early 20ies didnt have wads of cash to spend we were lucky a lot of us to have enough to see the match and have a few pints before and after the game and talk and laugh about the voodoo the Lads in Red had worked on the opposition yet again ! No mention of the financial viability of the club we supported home and awayHappy Daze eh ? Progress?...Dont make me laugh.

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