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  • Loki Loki Apr 3, 2013 23:23 Flag

    The Ashley Williams debate

    While it is just a load of paper talk, some people here seem to have a massive problem for us to buy Williams in the summer. Why though?

    With Carra going, we are going to have to sign a general at the back. Someone who can organise and give grief to the boys when they need it. Williams ticks these boxes for me. The fact that he's played under Rodgers before is a bonus. He also gives 100% every game and he is calm on the ball as well. Someone needs to explain to me why he would be so bad for the team. Some have mentioned Samba, and I wouldn't mind them both!

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    • Loki Dave...if Suarez could NOT speak english would u rather Kenny hadnt bought him ? I think Loki u are displaying an illogical prejuidice against even considering this lad DEDE as a new centre back its as much a prejuidice against as u seem to think Im biased for...all Im saying is he SOUNDS like hot stuff. I havent seen him play but to be absolutely honest Ive only seen Chris Samba play once this season too but Ive read enough good reports on him to prefer him over Williams who I have seen play a few times this season and I dont rate him. Think about it Rogers will pay more than anybody else to buy him as hes worked with him before and therefore he thinks it makes his own job easier when he has a former player who he thinks understands what his requirements are but Borini and Allen were both former players and imo both are dead legs neither worth a fraction of what was paid forthem.

      • 3 Replies to colin
      • Loki...The Brazilian way was "samba soccer" a la the great side of 1970 the finest team Ive ever seen inc thecurrent Barca side. The ball constantly moving forward every player more than capable of "showing the ball" and taking it past a man or two to render blanket defense strategy helpless. Recent Brazilian national sides are a pale shadow of this all time great side even the winning side of World Cup 94 couldnt compare. BUT...generally Brazilians emphasis is on ball skills and yes the build up is slower but they can be explosive in the final third unlike us who are almost totally reliant on Louis to make something happen for us ?

      • Colin, I have never once asked for a native English speaker, just somebody who can communicate effectively enough to command and organise the troops. I have no prejudice against Dede, I have no opinion of him because I haven't seen him for myself. If we bought him I would give him 100% support - for 2 seasons at least!

      • Colin, I think it’s apples and oranges to compare Suarez and any potential candidate to replace Carra. It's helpful that our striker speaks English at least to a level that he can communicate with his teammates; however whoever comes in to anchor our backline and be a leader needs to be able to communicate fluently from day one. Besides, while Suarez did not speak much English as I understand it when he came in, and even now prefers not to speak English to the press, he became near fluent in Dutch when in Holland, so it’s a fair assumption he could pick up enough English to get by.

        As for Williams vs. Samba, I'm open to this. Samba I don't think would be a bad option, although think age is against him. Being 29 I don't think should rule him out as I'd say he has at least 3 maybe more years in him, but with the FSG policy not sure they'd go for him, especially as he'd not come cheap as he just joined QPR in January.

        However I think you may have changed your rational on Williams. If it’s that you rate him less than Samba or any other candidate I understand, but in the past you seem to not want him because he comes from Swansea and or played for BR in the past, which I find illogical. As for BR being more likely to pay more for him than any other manager, I just don't understand how you come to this conclusion. Other managers may value him less, but then again some may value him higher, but I think the most logical conclusion is that BR is the one most likely to know his true market value as he has more direct knowledge and experience with the player to know what he's really worth.

    • Nobody seems to have addressed the point I made of just "Why does Laudrup seem so ready to let Rogers poach the heart of the spine of his team Ashley Williams ? For me its clear..he intends to con us into paying over the odds for this player as he knows there is nobody else as interested as Rogers and hes sussed that Rogers desire to sign yet another of his ex players is very strong in other words the supply meets the demand and once again we pay Swansea well over the odds for a player whos CV doesnt warrant it. Then...Laudrup uses the dosh hes just made to goout and buy someone he knows to be a far better player than the one he just sold. Stay away from Swansea and take a good look around for someone with the experience physique and authority to get the job done for us.

      • 2 Replies to colin
      • Colin I’m not sure I see where you’re going with the "why would Landrup sell" statement, because surely the same could be said of every single player in professional football. If the buying club started doubting their own scouting reports, judgment and rating of players just because when they express an interest they find the selling club actually might be open to a transfer, then where would we be?

        Secondly, how much control do you really think managers have over which players leave in the next transfer window? Yes technically any player under contract can be held to that contract, (look at the lad from West Brom enjoying the sightseeing in West London in January!) but you know as well as I do, 9 times out of ten if a player wants out, the selling club is going to do its best to get the most cash they can, but they'll let the lad leave, whether they rate him or not.

        I have no idea what wages Williams is on, or how long he's got in his current deal, but the power of the player goes up exponentially as the contract winds down, and even more so for clubs who cannot afford to match wages offered by bigger clubs.

        I'm still on the fence of whether Williams is the right player for us. I can see a number of attributes that put him in the frame, but I would agree there are question marks on whether he’s the best we can get. However what I am sure about is the fact that he comes from Swansea does not disqualify him for me, and just because his manager (actually his club) might be willing to sell him also does not ring alarm bells for me, because any player we do actually bring in will also come from a club where obviously they've decided they don't mind selling us a player.

      • Hi Colin

        I'm in the "very unsure" camp about Williams myself but don't see the logic you are using. I mean that couldn't you level the "why would they let him go if he was so good" at any player we buy if not out of contract?

    • For me it's just because i'm a wary of players from mid table, we have witnessed how hard it is for players to adjust to the expectations of liverpool. If we are to get someone who is older who can come straight into the first team I would rather that was someone who has experience of playing with a big club, in big games and preferably winning. A been their and done it kind of guy. Williams would have a lot to prove and i'm not sure he would be able to command the respect from the other players that a centre back sergeant needs. There must be better out there although I confess that I have no idea who the ageing great that i'm on about might be.

      De Vrij seems to be mentioned a lot in the press as someone we are keeping tabs on, a young promising player that fits the FSG transfer mould. Same goes for Dede apart from everyone is interested in him and is supposed to be 'the next big thing', would be coup if we can sign him. Both are also reported to be very comfortable on the ball so would appeal to Rodgers. I can't see him going for Samba in a million years.

      I said on another thread before that I think Kelly and Wisdom really need to considered as candidates as well. When you think about it Kelly's CV is just as good as the young guys mentioned in the press.

      • 2 Replies to Aurelio
      • Yes Kelly( if fully fit) is in every way every bit as good as Williams so why does BR have to go back to what he sees as his "well of ex players" hes managed and buy yet another making four in total, none of the other three hes bought in have yet proven their worth for me . Wisdom too I would certainly consider starting at centreback before this Williams being bought...however I sense that the Williams thing is already a done deal but if hes so good how come Laudrup would let such a crucial piece of the spine of his team leave ?...Unless it was once again LFC paying "silly money" for someone just not worth that kind of fee. Clearly Laudrup is saying that there are far better players than his current starting centre back Williams out there and with the silly money we will have to give him for Williams ( he knows theres nobody out there who would offer same money for him as his ex manger) he will go out and purchase someone he KNOWS to be better. For these reasons I think it far better that BR resolves to say "Enough with these Swansea players !" And lets cast the net wide.

      • The way I see it is this.. players from mid table clubs just can't get to grips with how things are done at LFC..If we buy mid table players then we'llhave a mid table team..

    • Hello all. I've stayed in the background on this thread as I don't know much about Williams. However, I would like to make 2 points.

      1. Rodgers said in an interview the other day that there are no names out there. It's paper talk in all probability so remember that Williams hasn't signed yet.

      2. I'm surprised at the amount of people who seem to be completely against signing players from "lower teams" or leagues even. You don't have to look far to see literally thousands of examples of where clubs (including Liverpool) have done exactly that and it's worked wonders for both the club and the player. There are such thin lines between the quality of players at times and sometimes it just takes the right coaching, club, other players around them or even tactics to make the difference one way or the other.

      • 2 Replies to Colyn
      • Colyn...read yesterday quite an extensive article on a RCB who plays for a Brazilian club side hes been voted player of the yr by his clubs fans and is evidently thought of very highly in Brazil and a shoe in for RCB for the national side sorry cant remember the guys name it was in the football news on this thing here yesterday...think it might have been Gremio he plays for I think his name is DEDE but not sure check it out his club are in need of money and will sell but the price was 15 mill Euros...Arsenal have been watching him and evidently so have we ...he certainly sounds like a far better prospect than another Swansea deadleg but watch lay odds Rogers goes back to the Swansea well of ex players hes managed and gives close to double 15 mill euros for Williams and Arsenal take this guy DEDE who sounds like a very exciting and VERY competent player.

      • Your absolutely right on your first point, it’s all speculation at this point. What we have to remember is as the real season starts to wind down the silly one will ramp up, and as it’s obvious we'll be in for at least one centre back we will be link with everyone and his mother. I'm not much for predictions, but I'd not be surprised if between now and August if we're not linked with Vincent Komany, John Terry, and Per Mertesacker, just because some bright spark hack will put two and two together knowing a player is reportedly not happy and we want a CB!

        On the second point I agree 100%, although getting this right is the secret sauce for a successful scout. Of course if a player is not home grown he's going to have come from somewhere else, and players at big clubs most likely started at smaller club. The problem is some players seem to go up a level when you surround them with better players, while others just shrink and look invisible. Knowing which is which is the hardest part of picking out the next big thing. It's easy for some to tell you on a message board they know the differences, but professionals who have to make that decision with their livelihood on the line if they get it wrong are not perfect, so doubt any of us know for sure either.

    • Williams does seem to have some momentum behind him when it comes to the rumor mill, but I think it better to step back and think about what we are after rather than come up with a list of names and asking who fits.

      Seems to me the two reasons that Cara has seen so much playing time recently is down to his form which has been like an Indian summer, but also because he brings something beyond just talent to the party. I mean let’s be honest, and some on here have not been shy about giving him stick in the past, Cara is not the ideal player anymore, he's slow and lost what little pace he might have once had, he's not great in the air, and rarely a threat with the noggin offensively, and he's not what most would consider a cultured ball playing at his feet footballer, but why has he become a starter again?

      For me the simple answer is he's a leader. He knows the game, he knows the system, he organizes those around him, and not just because he screams his head off (yes he's vocal) people actually listen and follow him.

      For me that is what we're looking for, and so long as they meet minimum (hopefully exceed) requirements in terms of footballing ability its who we should be considering, and since Williams seems to tick many of those boxes even if he's not a big established name, I think that is why his name keeps coming up.

      There may be a case for others, and to be honest as I don't follow much football outside the prem I can't comment on some of the players mentioned in this thread. However if they are being mentioned because they are good defenders, or good footballers that maybe only half of what is required, and not even the most important half, unless they are also leaders. Same applies to the lads mentioned already with us. I have a lot of time for Kelly and Wisdom, both good footballers I expect a lot from over time, but are they leaders? Put it this way if we were just looking for a good defender, why are we not seeing the combination of Agger and Skrtel more often? Both are very good defenders, both can get the job done; but neither is a general which is what we need.

      • 1 Reply to dsteer_lfc_68
      • Dave agree with u Carra brings leadership in spades...look at that debacle at St Mary's when he wasnt available ! Too many of our younger players NEED that kind of leadership out there and when it isnt there it seems ..neither are they. For me CB is such a crucial role in the spine of the team that u just cant afford to make an expensive mistake the way perhaps u could with a wide front man. I dont feel Williams credentials are adequate the" best buy by far that has been made during BR's tenure isnt a player hes managed previously imo ..and that is Coutinho a true flair player 8 mill as opposed to Borini 10 and a half mill and Allen 15 mill and Sturridge 12 mill. Please consider just why Laudrup would be willing to let the heart of the spine of his team go ?

    • THis thread seems to have been revived but it was in the press this morning that our interest in Williams has cooled...FOR ME THATS GOOD NEWS THE GUY IS A CLOD. No more ex Swansea previously BR managed DUDS thanks.