• Liverpool Message Board

dsteer_lfc_68 10539 posts  |  Last Activity: Feb 13, 2013 16:31 Member since: May 30, 2007
  • Reply to

    Luis Suarez

    by A Yahoo! User Feb 11, 2013 22:02
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 13, 2013 16:31 Flag

    Actually Robert I was only talking about "unsavory" behavior. What Hazard did I think goes well beyond appealing for a penalty, talking back to a ref, or similar behavior some wish players would avoid.

    I mean if we're going to nitpick Suarez, just wondering what similar misdemeanors by other players have had lengthy debates.

  • Reply to

    Sad but true.

    by mel n Feb 13, 2013 07:36
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 13, 2013 16:27 Flag

    Actually Mel there is quite a bit in that I do agree with, although maybe not your final conclusion.

    Yes Brendan is a good manager, and the jury is still out on whether he can be more than that. But with the jury out it’s hard to predict the verdict either way, as someone who can reach no higher than the levels he's already attained, or if he can go beyond that to where we want to be and feel we should be.

    I'm wondering if similar comments were made when other managers who had success at lower levels in the game, such as Shanks in the lower leagues, or SAF with success in Scotland, and whether after less than a full season in charge of much bigger clubs, they could rise beyond their past best.

    For me, and I think many others a fair hearing is what should happen before passing judgment. Now how long that hearing should be maybe different for some, but I do think a single full season is the minimum, and more if progress can be measured as the project unfolds.

    I'd also agree the side is very fragile at times, and does not handle adversity well. My disappointment and criticism for the match against WBA was not the loss of 3 points, not the performance for the vast majority of the match, but the apparent capitulation in the last 10 minutes or so when things went against us. And, as you say it’s not the first time it’s happened.

    But the question is why, and what realistically a manager can do about it. For me the reason is mental, and BR does have the responsibility to ensure his team goes out with the correct frame of mind. But one good pep talk is not the solution, but a series of conversations over a long period of time to build up a team, re-enforce things when they go right, and addressing issues when they don't.

    But to be perfectly frank I'm not sure what a manager can do when his team has shown the right tactical, technical, and mental attributes for 80 minutes, to correct things when they slip in the last 10 minutes of a match. I mean it’s not like you can call a time out, get the lads in a huddle and try again!

    So while we need to see more mental strength throughout matches from the lads, and BR has responsibility in building up that mental strength, I'd not read too much into single matches. Rather I'd look to see what happens after the manager has had a chance to show his influence. That is, how we react to adversity in the next fixture. We sprang back well after the embarrassing loss to Villa, and it’s a similar reaction I'm looking for going forward.

    All teams slip now and again, the best managers make sure it does not happen often (consistency), and ensure the reaction to those defeats actually strengthen rather than weaken the squad. But as I said before, for me the jury is still out on both these counts when it comes to BR.

  • Reply to

    Game over after WBA

    by Hobitez Feb 12, 2013 10:25
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 13, 2013 02:17 Flag

    Does that really make any sense?

    Okay so it’s a game by game evaluation, so after the home defeat by Villa he deserved the axe, but the good form (with the exception of last night of course) since would ensure he is retained. But surely if you've already sacked him you'd never get the good form which was the reaction to the defeat. So it would be a shame if FSG actually followed your current advise in in fact BR could engineer a similar reaction in our next run of games.

    On the raise the game observation, I think you mate might have this one upside down also. Seems to me the endless press criticism is that we've not won against a team ahead of us in the table, which in itself seems a bit strange as most clubs don't do as well against teams who are consistently better than them and therefore ahead in the table.

    But I'd ask your mate how he explains the Norwich result, or results against the likes of Fulham or Sunderland. Maybe ask him if he's just reading old newspapers but not watching current matches?

  • Reply to

    What the manager says in public

    by Loki Feb 12, 2013 13:08
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 13, 2013 02:02 Flag

    Loki, seems when it comes to BR for some people its "Heads I win, Tails you lose". No matter what he does its wrong! But I got a feeling he'll go ahead and do what he thinks he has to in order to get a reaction from the team. That might be a bit of yelling at some players, it might be a bit of handholding for others, but it will be based on what he thinks is needed, not what the press think he should do, and certainly not what a bunch of whiners on a message board think is the right course of action.

    Last night was a huge disappointment. But I'd say the same thing about the Villa match not so long ago, and if we get the same reaction from the lads as we did from that home embarrassment I'd be quite happy. Some are found of the saying one step forward and two backward, but it seems to me to be the other way around, and maybe a couple more steps forward than just two at a time.

    We get at a similar reaction from the lads as we did after the Villa match, then while top 4 is gone (as most who had a realistic view thought it was before the season even kicked off) then we'll more than do better than last term. We'll end on a high, and have momentum going into next season, when I still think we'll have a tough challenge to get a top 4 finish, but be in much better shape to go head to head with the 4 or 5 other clubs who are likely to place anywhere between 3rd and 7th, and feel they have a shot at a CL spot.

  • Reply to

    Still on course to improve on last year.

    by Loki Feb 12, 2013 12:49
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 12, 2013 19:19 Flag

    Actually sofa I think that is a realistic target, one I would have agreed with at the beginning of the season, and one I think is still achievable. However I think I'd rather look at an improvement on points tally rather than just league position as we can only control what we do and not what those around us do.

    But I'd ask if you think that goal is now not attainable? Or in fact was not attainable as of around December when I think you started talking about the need to replace BR? If you think 6th is out of reach then fair enough, your argument makes sense that BR is not the right man to move is forward, or at least as far forward in one season as you think we should progress. However if it’s still attainable, surely we should wait to see if he reaches that goal before calling for his head?

  • Reply to

    Still on course to improve on last year.

    by Loki Feb 12, 2013 12:49
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 12, 2013 19:18 Flag

    Actually sofa I think that is a realistic target, one I would have agreed with at the beginning of the season, and one I think is still achievable. However I think I'd rather look at an improvement on points tally rather than just league position as we can only control what we do and not what those around us do.

    But I'd ask if you think that goal is now not attainable? Or in fact was not attainable as of around December when I think you started talking about the need to replace BR? If you think 6th is out of reach then fair enough, your argument makes sense that BR is not the right man to move is forward, or at least as far forward in one season as you think we should progress. However if it’s still attainable, surely we should wait to see if he reaches that goal before calling for his head?

  • Reply to

    Luis Suarez

    by A Yahoo! User Feb 11, 2013 22:02
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 12, 2013 17:42 Flag

    Actually Robert I don't think you answered that, or at least I don't feel satisfactory.

    You said you've commented on Chelsea players before but would be happy to discuss further if I'd like, or words to that effect.

    I actually would like to discuss, and as I don't watch many Chelsea games I can't give you examples, which I why I ask you to provide the last time you discussed Chelsea in the context of unsavory behavior as I honestly don't recall.

    So I'll just wait for your examples so we can begin the discussion you say you'd like to have.

  • Reply to

    Luis Suarez

    by A Yahoo! User Feb 11, 2013 22:02
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 12, 2013 16:44 Flag

    Actually I think this is what you asked PS:

    To ask you a variation of the question you asked abu_pres, was there nothing in the match about Suarez you found unsavoury?
    Robert

    I'm just asking the same question about the Chelsea team rather than just Suarez, and if you'd care to comment on when you last posted your own thoughts on the unsavory behavior of your own clubs' players.

  • Reply to

    Game over after WBA

    by Hobitez Feb 12, 2013 10:25
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 12, 2013 16:36 Flag

    Which is why today you want BR sacked, but yesterday you were telling us he's had a tough job and should be given till next season?

    The stats are clear, 19 shots on the West Brom goal. You watched the game you tell me how many you think were weak shots (therefore blame the players inability, which is I know code for you to "sack BR”), and how many were goal bound if not for an outstanding save from Foster (which I'm confused which day of the week it is, but might also be code for – “Sack BR”?).

    I'm sorry sofa, I'd like to have a discussion with you, as I'm interested in all views on how we can progress, but since no matter sooner or later it ends with "Sack BR" I'm not sure it’s an interesting discussion. It’s like reading the last line of a novel before reading chapter one.

  • Reply to

    Luis Suarez

    by A Yahoo! User Feb 11, 2013 22:02
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 12, 2013 16:16 Flag

    Robert I'd agree with your second example but not the first. Players appealing for penalty I don't find that particularly unsavory, especially as it was not exactly a major outcry, he just put his hands up in the air, which as PS said seems to be a reflex of most strikers who go down in the box whether there is contact or not, or if contact is legal or a foul.

    I don't however like the clapping, although in this particular case since he went down as if the meat between the WBA CB sandwich I do think he is allowed to feel the decision went against him. Actually ironic that it was McAuly who helped him up and laughed at the clapping, and actually appealed to the ref not to give Suarez a card as he saw the funny side of the gesture rather than a cautioning offense.

    But as you are so interested on LFC supporters documenting instances of disgust with our player I'm wondering when was the last time you posted about your disgust about a Chelsea player? Care to share?

  • Reply to

    Luis Suarez

    by A Yahoo! User Feb 11, 2013 22:02
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 12, 2013 16:00 Flag

    JeeRoo it’s not about defending Suarez or anyone else, it’s about being honest about cheating, and I'm sorry the "moment of madness" comment just does not stack up imo. Players cheat for one reason only to gain an advantage, and many players do it on a regular basis. Ridgewell, Neville, Cazorla, and Suarez know exactly what they are doing, they are trying to gain advantage, and none is having a moment of madness.

    Doubt that, take a look at almost any defender in the league and tell me he does not cheat in each and every game he plays. That is what defenders are taught to do, with the motto play to the whistle drilled into them. He may not blatantly dive, but he's trying to gain an advantage over attackers every time he can. He'll push, pull, and nudge to put players off. He'll take them down and "take a yellow for the team" (how many of those did we see from WBA last night?). And some will wave imaginary cards or complain to the ref over the player they know they just took down trying to get him booked.

    I'm not going to defend Suarez for every past offense, like most players he's done his fair share of things to gain advantage. But why not also have a go at Bale, seems to me he's gone over just as many times, actually been awarded more pens and free kicks that Suarez, but as a young British player, I suppose it’s just that he has too many "moments of madness" while Suarez is a blatant cheat!

  • Reply to

    Game over after WBA

    by Hobitez Feb 12, 2013 10:25
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 12, 2013 15:02 Flag

    I don't wholesale disagree with you here, but do think you’re being a little harsh.

    18 shots on the WBA goal, zero on the LFC goal up to the 80th minute. Now stats can tell you what you want to hear of course, but that tells me either we just kept tapping the ball toward Foster's goal, or West Brom put up a heck of a defensive effort. I think the truth maybe somewhere in between.

    But end of the day it came down to 3 mistakes, 2 by Agger when he lost his man at the corner, and lost Lukaku for the second, and the fact Stevie did not put away the penalty (but again a little credit to Foster).

    4th is gone, but to be honest like many people at the beginning of the season and last week I said it was a long shot. Give credit where its due - WBA for being extremely well organized (thanks Clarkie), and what I'd say was a fine performance by us up to 75th or 80th minute.

    But also be critical where it’s appropriate. That’s not about scapegoating anyone (Agger this week, Riena last week) but for me it’s the team mental strength that needs to improve. We concede a goal, or things don't go right we look fragile. It’s not about players technical ability, they are good, some very good. It’s not about tactics, they work, we create and create, and create again. But it is about confidence, that winning mentality, that belief that no matter what, we can get something out of the game. We've seen it at times this season, but too often when things go wrong, they go very wrong, and that is what we need to work on imo.

  • Reply to

    Sack Rodgers!

    by Paddy Feb 12, 2013 08:09
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 12, 2013 13:59 Flag

    I think you may have a point, and while I don't have the numbers either it seems to me our best chances from corners are when we play it short, rather than the traditional trying to pick out a big man in the box.

    Now it might be down to players as while we've got a few who are handy with the head, none are truly dominant (no more Carroll, no more Sami). Traditional headers at set pieces come from the back line, and while Agger and Skrtel are decent they are much better with their feet than heads imo, and of course we can talk about Cara's qualities, but goal scoring is not one of them!

    Maybe coaching would help. Drill enough and I'm sure it would get some results. However while I've never managed a prem team obviously, like others I have managed other things, and it’s usually mostly about working out priorities. So my question here is would extra time drilling set plays diminish the training that actually helps generate all those corners?

    We get lots of corners because we get the ball forward and attack our opponents goal. Those corners are generated from deflected or saved shots, or crosses and wing play the opponents put out behind the goal. So I'm just wondering would we earn as many corners if we drilled less on how to get the ball into the box from open play and focused more on what to do when we earn the corner?

    Now I'm not saying we can't do better, and some extra drilling maybe in order. However other than bringing back Carroll, or buying in a giant CB with a wood head, and then drilling set plays as much as Stoke do, I'm not sure we'll get more out of corners drills versus spending some time working out how to turn all the open play chances we generate into actual goals rather than corner kicks.

  • Reply to

    The Final Run In...

    by Jason Feb 9, 2013 18:14
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 11, 2013 17:52 Flag

    Well as player manager I expect he had his kit on underneath.

  • Reply to

    FFP

    by dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 4, 2013 21:40
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 11, 2013 17:38 Flag

    Noo Noo, maybe a better way to explain this to Sofa is to ask him if he thinks he personally can carry as much debt in an overdraft or on a credit card than say a large business like British Telecom.

    The rules of the game (the market) apply to both him and the company the same, if they can't afford the interest payments they risk bankruptcy, but the amounts each can borrow differ greatly.

  • Reply to

    FFP

    by dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 4, 2013 21:40
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 11, 2013 17:34 Flag

    Sofa, I think you need to get yourself a basic understand of what debt is, and how it’s managed before you draw a red line on this issue.

    Debt itself is not an issue, so long as it’s managed within reasonable sustainable limits relative to income. Yes Utd have a huge debt and on anyone else’s balance sheet (other than City and Chelsea) it would sink the club. But Utd also have the largest income of any prem club, so it’s manageable.

    Think of it this way, the vast majority of people have and use overdrafts as well as credit cards. Some get into trouble because they borrow more than they can pay, but most people use the instruments of debt very well. The vast majority of businesses use debt also, and spend at least some portion, some a great portion of any given year in debt. In fact if they did not have the ability to borrow they'd go under as often times they have to pay their bills before getting paid themselves. It’s no different for a football club.

    Personally I'm disappointed the league has gone down the path of defining a set amount of debt for its version of FFP. First debt is easy to hide on a balance sheet, and second if you’re going to use debt it should be as a percentage of earnings rather than a fixed amount. More than half the debt Utd currently has almost forced us into receivership, while only a third of that is what took Pompy down.

    I'd say a better measure would be to ensure clubs don't exceed a certain debt to earnings ratio, or even forget debt and go more in line with FFP and allow clubs to carry as much debt as they like, but over a given period (3 years for FFP) clubs need to break even. That would allow clubs to deficit spend for short periods of time, and carry debt to help manage their business, but ensure they did it within manageable levels.

  • Reply to

    Can we really make top 4 this season?

    by Hobitez Feb 4, 2013 11:35
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 11, 2013 15:49 Flag

    Ralf I think that is the key. Consistency. At times we've played extremely well this season. We've held our own against City with two draws that could of or should have been wins, and I'd say held our own against United and deserved at least something out of our two meetings this season.

    However we've not been consistent game to game, or even within games, where we've dominated for large portions of some matches but still walked away with nothing.

    But I think that inconsistency is indicative of a young team and a team going through transition. You see glimpses of what the plan should be, but not on a consistent basis.

    The good news is that I do think we see more of the good stuff of late, and hopefully on a more consistent basis. I still think top 4 is out of reach this season, one because of the poor start meaning we have too much to catch up, and despite a good run of form I'm just not sure we can be at our best consistently for the rest of the season. I see at least one more slip up on the horizon unfortunately.

  • Reply to

    Can we really make top 4 this season?

    by Hobitez Feb 4, 2013 11:35
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 11, 2013 15:41 Flag

    But if that is how you really feel, why start a thread and post multiple times you'd like Bucky sacked?

    I understand your frustration, we all feel it, but if you can have a moment of realistic reflection like above, why not try to think of those moments when you get an urge to post a knee jerk reaction?

  • Reply to

    Jamie Carragher confirms retirement

    by Hobitez Feb 7, 2013 14:00
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 7, 2013 16:08 Flag

    It is a sad moment reading the announcement, but would rather look at it and celebrate everything he's given to the club over the years. He's won everything a club player can win other than the title. He's been a constant in the starting line up till the last couple seasons, and as we saw in our last two matches still has a lot to give. And, while I think he still has a lot to give to the club off the pitch, and no matter if that is a movement into coaching/management or in a few years, I can only say thank you.

  • Reply to

    FFP

    by dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 4, 2013 21:40
    dsteer_lfc_68 dsteer_lfc_68 Feb 7, 2013 15:22 Flag

    Robert wouldn’t it be denying basic established economic thinking to deny that large spending by one club has no impact on other clubs? It’s basic wage inflation.

    If one bank pays high salaries and bonuses to attract the best financial minds, then other banks have to follow suit unless they don't want to also attract the best minds, therefore causing all compensation in the financial sector to rise.

    The same applies to football. The suggestion that other clubs don't have to match what Chelsea and City pays would imply either you don't think inflation exists, or that all the other clubs would just decide not to complete in a business which is supposed to be all about competition.